So much for CSG C2 pads lasting :(

[Icecreamtruk]

Im 200% with Mike on this one, seems like you are very deep into ABS. Turn nanies off, get coaching and pay attention, it is subtle but you can feel ABS activating (not thru the pedal, but by how the car reacts and the loss of braking when you go over max threshold onto ABS territory).

[TommyW]

You may not be degressive braking quickly enough. Hitting the brakes hard and not starting to come off soon enough. I went through pads quickly until I focused on that. get a vbox or some other data gizmo and look at your brake traces. Huge help imo.

[Jstyle]

So in talking back and forth with CSG they’re working with me and getting me a new compound next season. I’m also upgrading to the Brembo BM4 as well next season. I know I have a lot to work on so I appreciate everyone’s input.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If you prefer to keep laying deep into ABS, buy a pad designed to accommodate ABS use. Keep in mind that ABS use will always result in hotter brakes and faster consumable wear.

Could you expand on that comment a little? Is that mostly regarding the ideal temperature range?

Reason I ask is that the CSG site includes this statement about the sprint pads: "Key development points also include ensuring that these friction materials are compatible with a wide range of tires (sport tires to racing slicks) and ABS or Traction Control ("TC") systems found on OE and motorsport applications." Link: https://www.counterspacegarage.com/c...ke-pads#sprint

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Could you expand on that comment a little? Is that mostly regarding the ideal temperature range?

Reason I ask is that the CSG site includes this statement about the sprint pads: "Key development points also include ensuring that these friction materials are compatible with a wide range of tires (sport tires to racing slicks) and ABS or Traction Control ("TC") systems found on OE and motorsport applications." Link: https://www.counterspacegarage.com/c...ke-pads#sprint

A compound designed to accommodate the sudden release/grab of ABS actuation, such as CE2, which also happens to have longer life. Release characteristic has to be tuned and friendly to ABS. Some compounds will be "sticky" on release, opposite of how they may behave on application. If even CE2 is not sufficient for a user, other unnamed compounds are available on a case-by-case basis, but sufficient data will need to be presented to justify the use of unreleased compounds.

Generally speaking, it's better to your wallet to just learn to threshold rather than be fully ABS dependent at a club/casual level. In pro series that allow for ABS, you want to actually abuse the ABS to go faster, as the ABS is tunable and optimized to each condition. Setting up a Bosch motorsport ABS costs more than a brand new 86!

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by Jstyle

So in talking back and forth with CSG they’re working with me and getting me a new compound next season.

Also set up some data logging where you can see the brake pressure data.
RaceChrono + OBDLink MX+ is the cheapest way.
Garmin Catalyst can't log brake pressure data.

Originally Posted by Jstyle

I’m also upgrading to the Brembo BM4 as well next season.

Sanity checking: do you know if your wheels will fit over B-M4?

@CSG Mike is there a list of wheels that fit over B-M4, similar to the one for PP Brembos?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Also set up some data logging where you can see the brake pressure data.
RaceChrono + OBDLink MX+ is the cheapest way.
Garmin Catalyst can't log brake pressure data.



Sanity checking: do you know if your wheels will fit over B-M4?

@CSG Mike is there a list of wheels that fit over B-M4, similar to the one for PP Brembos?

There isn't. The information is available for folks with serious purchasing inquiries via direct contact with CSG. (email them)

[jflogerzi]

Those rotors look is pretty rough shape. When changing pad compounds I always like to start with a Fresh Rotor to minimize issues due to improper bedding of the rotor and pad.

[Stonehorsw]

The effect that Mike (#47) is talking is hysteresis of the brake caliper/pad. The variation on the curve (brake torque variation during modulation) has a big impact on the brake controller module.
Other point, OEM calipers are not designed for higher torque levels, so upgrading to opposite piston calipers have other hidden benefits.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If you prefer to keep laying deep into ABS, buy a pad designed to accommodate ABS use. Keep in mind that ABS use will always result in hotter brakes and faster consumable wear.

Gonna respectfully call BS on this claim, from an engineering perspective of course. After speaking to few fellow engineers (including a former decade long VP of engineering for Akebono brake systems) I can confidently say the logic here is wrong.

Let's rewind the tapes to freshman year of engineering: To slow down any object with mass, a set amount of energy is required. It doesn't matter if the car is using ABS, or threshold braking - the amount of energy required to slow down the mass is the same. Again, it does NOT matter if the braking is done with rapid pulsations (ABS) or not, the energy to slow an object the same distance is identical. In fact, the test data performed on brake dynos actually points in the other direction. Being, that the rapid pulses created by ABS actuation (which look more like sine waves due to the natural hysteresis of the system) would actually decrease pad temperatures by a minor amount. This is due to the gas evacuation that occurs when pad force decreases during the ABS modulation.

If the claim is that the OP is killing the C2 pads by using ABS because the pads aren't designed to accommodate the sudden release/grab of ABS actuation, well then I think CSG should alter their claim that the sprint pad compound line has friction materials that are compatible with a wide range of tires (sport tires to racing slicks) and ABS or Traction Control ("TC") systems found on OE and motorsport applications.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Gonna respectfully call BS on this claim, from an engineering perspective of course. After speaking to few fellow engineers (including a former decade long VP of engineering for Akebono brake systems) I can confidently say the logic here is wrong.

Let's rewind the tapes to freshman year of engineering: To slow down any object with mass, a set amount of energy is required. It doesn't matter if the car is using ABS, or threshold braking - the amount of energy required to slow down the mass is the same. Again, it does NOT matter if the braking is done with rapid pulsations (ABS) or not, the energy to slow an object the same distance is identical. In fact, the test data performed on brake dynos actually points in the other direction. Being, that the rapid pulses created by ABS actuation (which look more like sine waves due to the natural hysteresis of the system) would actually decrease pad temperatures by a minor amount. This is due to the gas evacuation that occurs when pad force decreases during the ABS modulation.

If the claim is that the OP is killing the C2 pads by using ABS because the pads aren't designed to accommodate the sudden release/grab of ABS actuation, well then I think CSG should alter their claim that the sprint pad compound line has friction materials that are compatible with a wide range of tires (sport tires to racing slicks) and ABS or Traction Control ("TC") systems found on OE and motorsport applications.

Let's go back even further to basic physics.

When you transition back and forth rapidly between kinetic and static friction... what is the energy exchange involved? How is that energy being dissipated, and what is the pad's functional state for a static vs kinetic friction state? While at a very basic level, you're turning kinetic energy of the vehicle into heat/noise, the actual energy conversion is far more complex. It's like saying all biology is chemistry, and all chemistry is electron exchange.


This doesn't apply to just CSG pads but all pads.

[Stonehorsw]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Gonna respectfully call BS on this claim, from an engineering perspective of course. After speaking to few fellow engineers (including a former decade long VP of engineering for Akebono brake systems) I can confidently say the logic here is wrong.

Let's rewind the tapes to freshman year of engineering: To slow down any object with mass, a set amount of energy is required. It doesn't matter if the car is using ABS, or threshold braking - the amount of energy required to slow down the mass is the same. Again, it does NOT matter if the braking is done with rapid pulsations (ABS) or not, the energy to slow an object the same distance is identical. In fact, the test data performed on brake dynos actually points in the other direction. Being, that the rapid pulses created by ABS actuation (which look more like sine waves due to the natural hysteresis of the system) would actually decrease pad temperatures by a minor amount. This is due to the gas evacuation that occurs when pad force decreases during the ABS modulation.

If the claim is that the OP is killing the C2 pads by using ABS because the pads aren't designed to accommodate the sudden release/grab of ABS actuation, well then I think CSG should alter their claim that the sprint pad compound line has friction materials that are compatible with a wide range of tires (sport tires to racing slicks) and ABS or Traction Control ("TC") systems found on OE and motorsport applications.

1. Gas dissipation is one thing from a long past. I don’t see modern materials from Akebono having effect on that. Even rotor slots provide less gain nowadays.
2. Short duration time as on the brake modulation eould not be enough for the piston rollback to act.
3. Which Dyno procedure is he mentioning? AK Master? Which conditions?
4. The stick/slip effect is exacerbated with ABS application. This happens on the friction (normally HP lining has more hysteresis) and on the caliper (guide pin, piston binding).
5. Heat checks and Brake torque variation have correlation with binding (specially for piston, ask your friend for a specific piston material to reduce that)
6. Pad tapper wear also has correlation with binding. Sliding caliper tends to wrap (right hand rule for torque)

PS: I think you mixed development for NAO friction materials, with high performance low-met materials. There’re very different animals.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Let's go back even further to basic physics.

When you transition back and forth rapidly between kinetic and static friction... what is the energy exchange involved?

Nope, energy change has nothing to do with this. It's a function of vehicle starting velocity, ending velocity, vehicle mass, and time. The shape of the energy flux into the pad is affected by friction changes (like you're mentioning), but the overall energy absorption for the pad is a function of the vehicle parameters mentioned above. The phenomenon that you're describing with the increased wear rate of your pad in this example is likely due to the pad having very non-linear wear versus temperature characteristics - in which the peaks of energy input at peak deceleration causes accelerated pad wear. Have you guys done a brake dyno test regarding wear at different temperatures like that described in SAE J2707? That will likely confirm that hypothesis.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Nope, energy change has nothing to do with this. It's a function of vehicle starting velocity, ending velocity, vehicle mass, and time. The shape of the energy flux into the pad is affected by friction changes (like you're mentioning), but the overall energy absorption for the pad is a function of the vehicle parameters mentioned above. The phenomenon that you're describing with the increased wear rate of your pad in this example is likely due to the pad having very non-linear wear versus temperature characteristics - in which the peaks of energy input at peak deceleration causes accelerated pad wear. Have you guys done a brake dyno test regarding wear at different temperatures like that described in SAE J2707? That will likely confirm that hypothesis.

Sure, if you ignore all the chemistry involved. If it were as simple as the bolded, then there would be very little variety to brake pads. Because of the chemistry involved, is where all the different brake characteristics come from.

Likewise, different whiskeys wouldn't exist because it's ultimately "just distilled spirits", ignoring all the nuances.

If only it were that simple.