FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[YukiHachiRoku]

lmao

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Every night I revel in the sheer awesomeness of the Z and its mythic heritage. I masturbate furiously to photos of 300ZX's and 240's....mmmmm, so beautiful and perfect.

In fact, I don't even know what the hell I'm doing on this site...I can't fight this feeling anymore...I must buy a 370Z and experience god's chariot for myself...I just hope my head doesn't explode from the greatness.

I think I'm going to go out and get a tattoo of a VQ series motor on my back right now...and then laugh at all the pathetic drivers of Porsches and M3's, and proclaim my Z's superiority throughout the land...

Funny, I thought only MKIV Supra owners were like this!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by fatoni

there is zero argument that you can make for swapping tires that you cant make for something else so why do people insist on the fact that tires are somehow special?

OF course there is a VERY good argument for comparing cars on the same make model tires (of OEM size). Because tires are *by far* the biggest determinant of how your car will perform under braking and cornering, and have an ENORMOUS impact on lap time.

Comparing one car on inferior tires tells you nothing about how it REALLY stacks up.

One car on Primacy HPs vs another on Pirelli PZero Neros is simply not a valid comparison.

Serious comparisons of motorcycles pretty much always put them all on the same make/model tire for this reason. They want to compare the BIKES.

Simple concept to anyone who knows squat about vehicle performance, really...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ZDan

OF course there is a VERY good argument for comparing cars on the same make model shocks(of OEM size). Because shocksare *by far* the biggest determinant of how your car will perform under braking and cornering, and have an ENORMOUS impact on lap time.

Comparing one car on inferior shocks tells you nothing about how it REALLY stacks up.

One car on racelands vs another on asts is simply not a valid comparison.

Serious comparisons of motorcycles pretty much always put them all on the same make/model tire for this reason. They want to compare the BIKES.

Simple concept to anyone who knows squat about vehicle performance, really...

this still makes sense and the only counterargument i can think of is something like "but still, tires are different" i have yet to hear someone make a premise where changing tires follows a logical concept that changing some other parts doesnt. hell even in stock classes you are allowed to change shocks and sways.

[Turbowned]

Shocks? I'll wager that two same-model cars, one on blown factory struts and racing tires will annihilate one on Penske double-adjustable, remote reservoir Jesus shocks and stock tires in any contest of speed. Plus again, tires take an hour to change. Shocks require a few hours plus an alignment.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

Shocks? I'll wager that two same-model cars, one on blown factory struts and racing tires will annihilate one on Penske double-adjustable, remote reservoir Jesus shocks and stock tires in any contest of speed. Plus again, tires take an hour to change. Shocks require a few hours plus an alignment.

i wouldnt take that bet. i agree with what you are saying. the problem is that saying that it does nothing in the way of saying that changing tires is fair and changing shocks is unfair.

and just because i became curious, tires (255 rs3) and an alignment dropped about 5 sec off of buttonwillow (2:12 with just brake pads) and asts dropped another 3.xx seconds with zero adjustments and that lap had "3 big mistakes" they say that it could be a sup 2 min setup once they have it fine tuned

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by fatoni

this still makes sense and the only counterargument i can think of is something like "but still, tires are different" i have yet to hear someone make a premise where changing tires follows a logical concept that changing some other parts doesnt. hell even in stock classes you are allowed to change shocks and sways.

Seriously? Turbowned is right.

The Shocks have a OEM part number on them and the tires don't. That's the difference.

Go look at a used car. If the owner changed the tires (to OEM size equivalent) is the car "modified"? No it isn't. If the owner changed the shocks to aftermarket (not OEM) is the car considered "modified", yes it is. Changing the shock changes how the car rides, how the car feels... they change "the car".

Also it's another non-sequitur to make the argument that because of the rules of a racing class "stock class" or "other", allows you to make certain changes to the car isn't a viable counter argument. I race in a production class yet I'm allowed to change shocks, gut the car, add a cage, change the FD in the tranny etc etc etc... Ridiculous to make that argument that if I did all these things are on par with just changing tires. Once again, your conclusion is not supported by the premise.


Fatoni I think I need a FT86 Forum award for "rustling jimmies" for 4 pages now! This is almost a troll record I would imagine.

That's it. I'm starting a new thread with a poll.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Seriously? Turbowned is right.

The Shocks have a OEM part number on them and the tires don't. That's the difference.

Go look at a used car. If the owner changed the tires (to OEM size equivalent) is the car "modified"? No it isn't. If the owner changed the shocks to aftermarket (not OEM) is the car considered "modified", yes it is. Changing the shock changes how the car rides, how the car feels... they change "the car".

Also it's another non-sequitur to make the argument that because of the rules of a racing class "stock class" or "other", allows you to make certain changes to the car isn't a viable counter argument. I race in a production class yet I'm allowed to change shocks, gut the car, add a cage, change the FD in the tranny etc etc etc... Ridiculous to make that argument that if I did all these things are on par with just changing tires. Once again, your conclusion is not supported by the premise.


Fatoni I think I need a FT86 Forum award for "rustling jimmies" for 4 pages now! This is almost a troll record I would imagine.

That's it. I'm starting a new thread with a poll.

in my experience changing tires changes how the car rides and feels. im not even sure you understand my conclusion. i never said tires and shocks are on par with eachother. all ive been saying is that when you change the tires, its not a stock v stock comparison. if you arent doing stock v stock why stop at tires? i dont know many people who just change tires and call it a day. if youre gonna go changing things, make it race ready, swap pads fluids, get an aligmnent etc.

[Kunzite]

What is "stock"? The GT 86 with Michelin Primacy HP? The GT 86 with Bridgestone Turanza EL400? With whatever tires the dealer decides to equip the car?
If I buy a GT 86 and it comes equipped with Bridgestone Turanza, and I decide to change those to Michelin Primacy HP, does it means my car is no longer "stock"?

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by Kunzite

What is "stock"? The GT 86 with Michelin Primacy HP? The GT 86 with Bridgestone Turanza EL400? With whatever tires the dealer decides to equip the car?
If I buy a GT 86 and it comes equipped with Bridgestone Turanza, and I decide to change those to Michelin Primacy HP, does it means my car is no longer "stock"?

Oh wow. It seems there is no single "stock" tire and, yeah, no factory part number. Just like how different countries have different radios, they also have different wheels. In other parts of the world, you can select 18" optional wheels offered by Toyota corporate which inevitably will have non-Prius tires. There are even factory 16" tires and steel wheels. Is it fair to do the comparison on stock 16" steel wheels? They're intended to be swapped out for different wheels. Changing tires won't void warranty like other mods will. A subwoofer, spoiler, and whole bunch of accessories add a few pounds which, when combined, affects performance but it's still considered stock. The FR-S and BRZ weigh different because of different standard equipment but it's still considered stock. Even though different optional wheels/tires affects performance, they are still a part from the accessories catalog and not considered a different trim level (like a track package Mustang or R-Spec Genesis. Oh yeah, the BRZ was compared against a track pack Mustang so what's wrong with throwing in some OEM-offered accessories?). And in other countries, LSD is not "stock." This is a global forum with members from around the world and out of respect for the global designers of this car, we can't discriminate by sticking to American-spec when we compare.

So we can still strictly follow @fatoni's "mandate" of comparing on stock everything and, guess what, the tires don't have to be the 17" Prius tires.

Regardless, there is a globally common sentiment among objective, non-86-fanboy enthusiasts that the FR-S excels over the Z and other cars in its class in certain ways even with Prius tires. Their integrity (which holds more water than the anonymous posters yapping on this thread) rides on this sentiment.

[xAgentzero13]

frs/brz & genesis>370z thread closed

[rice_classic]

New thread started regarding this tire(d) subject. Please post there and vote so folks can get back to talking about the 370z.

[crazyyankeefan]

Interesting. Since when has "changing tires" become mods? Some ppl need to get their heads straight.

And this...

Originally Posted by xAgentzero13

frs/brz & genesis>370z thread closed

is the most ridiculous claim I've ever heard. If you want to say the Twins handle better than 370Z, it's a valid argument, but to say Gen coupe is better, you need to be out of your mind. Gen coupe has been reviewed and criticized million times for its crappy and inaccurate gearbox, and its terrible ride and handling as well. Just how is that better than 370Z?

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Because changing tires, brake pads, fluids, and rotors is difficult... Not like you can't spend an afternoon in your garage doing that stuff or anything...

Fair enough -- and, after all, it is intended to be an entry level sports car.

I guess I just don't want that at this point in my life. I want something that hits a number of performance benchmarks out of the box with room to grow.

I guess I'm still where I was from the start: If Toyota offers a more powerful, sport package version, I want it (once they fix the cam issues...)

I have to say, tho', I am very impressed with how much room to grow the car has. It almost defies belief.

Also -- now we know that the Gazoo twincharged car (the one I want!) probably has a stock motor. That's amazing!