BRZ vs S2000 vs Cayman S (my take)

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Nope. It's a totally stock Suzuka Blue AP2. Haven't done anything at all to it yet. Been drooling over the HKS Supercharger... haha

Try it. Just take the cover off of the airbox, and go for a drive.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by thill

Very nice writeup. I would love a Cayman S as my fun car. Gorgeous car. But with three young kids I don't see it happening. My WRX will be paid off in less than 2 years and I am seriously considering an S2K or a used FR-S/BRZ as my fun car in a few years. I have always wanted an S2K, but they are not practical here for about half the year and a decent one will be harder to find in the rust belt.

Is your Cayman your daily driver?

I understand your situation; I'm a single guy with a dog so I do not honestly have a need for a 4 door sedan. Before buying a BRZ I seriously considered a 2013 WRX hatch, but decided to hold off on any sort of "practical" vehicle till I truly needed one. If I were in your shoes I would probably do the same thing (purchase a used S2K/BRZ after WRX is paid off). And yes, the Cayman is my daily driver - though I still drive the Integra about 6,000 miles a year. If it's raining or snowing (esp snow) I drive the Integra. Or if I plan to ditch a car downtown for a night of drinking...Integra! haha.

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Nice writeup! I, too, considered a 987 when I was car shopping, but axed it due to the lack of rear pseudo-seats and shortage of contiguous cargo space-- having two trunks is nice if you're bringing an assortment of small, soft items, but doesn't help at all if you need to move a bulky object of any kind. Not that the BRZ has all that much cargo room, but it's definitely better off with those rears folded down.

Just out of curiosity, do you feel that your Cayman and the BRZ have a similar overall driving feel in terms of difficulty / sense of occasion? Or are they both just sweet-handling, easy to drive, modern cars? I ask because I remember driving a Boxster at MRLS at one point and I was shocked how easy it was to drive (I remember it being a lot like my BRZ, actually... super forgiving with great handling, but down on power).

I'm currently really conflicted about my own BRZ: it handles wonderfully after some suspension work and it's a lot of fun to drive, but in some ways I almost find it boring. With the suspension tweaks and a set of Super Sports the car just grips and goes in a pretty drama-free fashion. It's very quick for what it is, the handling is there, and I don't necessarily mind the lack of power-- I think it's plenty quick for the street, although some more torque would be nice-- but it's almost too easy to drive. It feels like the car doesn't really call you out for driving sloppily and doesn't really demand much of the driver, which usually wouldn't sound like a criticism, but is becoming a point of criticism for me.

Anyway, I've always loved Porsches and am considering trading my BRZ for one, but I'm really not sure if I'd like a water-cooled one at all. I autox'ed a 997 at one point --years ago-- but can't remember clearly what that drove like (just that it rotated nicely under trail-braking). I'm concerned that if I were to get a recent Porsche I might end up similarly bored with it, as modern ones just seem so fast and capable that I suspect they might feel a little too straightforward on the street. Do you feel like your Cayman is as easy to drive casually to drive as your BRZ was?

They're definitely both easy to drive cars - I would even say the Cayman is easier since it can get up to speed so easily. Rear visibility is better (I think) in the Cayman as well. The C pillars are still thick, but their location is better and the way the Cayman's tail droops helps with rear visibility, esp when parking. Naturally they are both sweet driving cars whose limits can't safely be reached on public roads. I haven't pushed the Cayman super hard, as I'm just a bit more cautious given the MR configuration I'm still learning. Also I purchased the car as is and while the front tires were close to new, the rears are down around 50% trend left - which isn't really optimal! (I plan to replace the rears by summer's end, if not sooner).

I also love air cooled Porsches, specifically the 964 and 993. Right now in my life though the 964 is too slow for what I want, and the 993's just cost too much! Maybe some day.

One thing I didn't really mention much and want to is that (never owning anything with more than 4 cylinders before) the Porsche's M97 flat six engine is incredibly smooth, like silk. Really a night and day difference. Gotta love a naturally balanced engine. Oh, and while it's 3.4 liters and has a redline of 7200 make no mistake, this engine loves to rev. There's even an almost "VTEC" like changeover above 6000 when the Vario-Cam adjusts the timing. The exhaust note changes and you feel a little extra boost. It's also quite torquey for what it is, with it's peak torque (252) sustained over a 3000 rpm band.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Try it. Just take the cover off of the airbox, and go for a drive.

Damn, I never tried that.

Luckily my dad owns an '05 Silverstone! When I go home for Easter I'll have to try that out. I doubt he'll mind since whenever I visit he's itching to take the Cayman for a spin

[DarkSunrise]

Good writeup, and glad to hear you're enjoying the Cayman! Owning a MR car is on my bucket list, so I'll probably end up buying a used 987 Cayman S or Elise/Exige in a few years.

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Just out of curiosity, do you feel that your Cayman and the BRZ have a similar overall driving feel in terms of difficulty / sense of occasion? Or are they both just sweet-handling, easy to drive, modern cars? I ask because I remember driving a Boxster at MRLS at one point and I was shocked how easy it was to drive (I remember it being a lot like my BRZ, actually... super forgiving with great handling, but down on power).

I'm currently really conflicted about my own BRZ: it handles wonderfully after some suspension work and it's a lot of fun to drive, but in some ways I almost find it boring. With the suspension tweaks and a set of Super Sports the car just grips and goes in a pretty drama-free fashion. It's very quick for what it is, the handling is there, and I don't necessarily mind the lack of power-- I think it's plenty quick for the street, although some more torque would be nice-- but it's almost too easy to drive. It feels like the car doesn't really call you out for driving sloppily and doesn't really demand much of the driver, which usually wouldn't sound like a criticism, but is becoming a point of criticism for me.

Anyway, I've always loved Porsches and am considering trading my BRZ for one, but I'm really not sure if I'd like a water-cooled one at all. I autox'ed a 997 at one point --years ago-- but can't remember clearly what that drove like (just that it rotated nicely under trail-braking). I'm concerned that if I were to get a recent Porsche I might end up similarly bored with it, as modern ones just seem so fast and capable that I suspect they might feel a little too straightforward on the street. Do you feel like your Cayman is as easy to drive casually to drive as your BRZ was?

I've noticed the FR-S is very forgiving with stock suspension at the track, even on moderately sticky tires. The limits are pretty high, but once you overstep that limit, it's relatively easy to recover. I've always attributed that to:

1) Less weight in the rear (FR layout, 54/46 weight distribution)
2) Camber curve (i.e., front mcp struts and rear multi-link)
3) Light hp/torque

I've driven the Cayman S and it feels setup by Porsche to be pretty forgiving, but I would guess the Cayman would bite harder at the limit than an FR-S, given:

1) More weight in the rear (MR layout, 45/55 weight distribution)
2) Lack of camber curve (rear mcp struts)
3) Greater hp/tq

Just my guess though. I haven't had the chance to flog the Cayman S at the track yet, only backroads.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I've noticed the FR-S is very forgiving with stock suspension at the track, even on moderately sticky tires. The limits are pretty high, but once you overstep that limit, it's relatively easy to recover. I've always attributed that to:

1) Less weight in the rear (FR layout, 54/46 weight distribution)
2) Camber curve (i.e., front mcp struts and rear multi-link)
3) Light hp/torque

I've driven the Cayman S and it feels setup by Porsche to be pretty forgiving, but I would guess the Cayman would bite harder at the limit than an FR-S,

When I sold my vette early last year.. I was headed to the Porsche dealer with a fist full of money.. I was sure that was what I wanted for my next car, having never owned a P car..
I took the Cayman S for a test drive, the dealer let me take it with my friend for the lunch hour, much to my surprise.
I loved the feel of the cockpit and the seating position. Of course the looks of the car and the sophistication of it all. Throwing it hard into a corner did not illicit any drama or "excitement", for lack of a better term.. It just stuck and I had to contend with the G forces. Very similar to my vette except for more refined input and feel. Very desirable for the track and high speed runs, I'm sure.. But it did not excite in the real world.. Was more of the same for me.. I don't need or want a track car for my DD with such high limits. I had enough of that with the vette.. My test drive of the FRS made me smile as the rear came about with every corner, not sloppy or uncontrolled.. Predictable and stable.. But ready to wag its tail within real world speeds. I was hooked!
So while I may be without the prestige and sophistication of a P car.. I am appreciating a real world driving car.. with some money in the bank.. It's all good..
I love this car.. I appreciate what the OEM was able to do in such an affordable package..

[Dezoris]

Only thing I don't agree with is the transmission part, I think the FRS/BRZ trans is more consistent and shifts smoother throughout the heat range than the S2000.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Only thing I don't agree with is the transmission part, I think the FRS/BRZ trans is more consistent and shifts smoother throughout the heat range than the S2000.

That could depend on what model AP1/2 and/or year S2000 you drove. I'm fairly certain the AP2 had better shift action than the AP1.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

That could depend on what model AP1/2 and/or year S2000 you drove. I'm fairly certain the AP2 had better shift action than the AP1.

Both, AP1 and AP2. Regardless of trans fluid.
Super sensitive to temperature, namely cold. GT86 gets notchy when cold but nothing compared to the S2000.

[CSG Mike]

The S2k trans likes heat... meant to be driven hard

Lets not forget it also handles a lot more torque...

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The S2k trans likes heat... meant to be driven hard

Lets not forget it also handles a lot more torque...

The cayman tends to be the same way in my experience - it gets a bit finicky in the cold (especially second gear, at least on mine), but once you get some heat into it, it gets a lot nicer.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Both, AP1 and AP2. Regardless of trans fluid.
Super sensitive to temperature, namely cold. GT86 gets notchy when cold but nothing compared to the S2000.

Weird, I never had that problem! YMMV I guess

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I also love air cooled Porsches, specifically the 964 and 993. Right now in my life though the 964 is too slow for what I want, and the 993's just cost too much! Maybe some day.

One thing I didn't really mention much and want to is that (never owning anything with more than 4 cylinders before) the Porsche's M97 flat six engine is incredibly smooth, like silk. Really a night and day difference. Gotta love a naturally balanced engine. Oh, and while it's 3.4 liters and has a redline of 7200 make no mistake, this engine loves to rev. There's even an almost "VTEC" like changeover above 6000 when the Vario-Cam adjusts the timing. The exhaust note changes and you feel a little extra boost. It's also quite torquey for what it is, with it's peak torque (252) sustained over a 3000 rpm band.

993's are quicker than 86's, but they're not shockingly fast. My family has a 993 that I get to drive fairly often, and I feel like it's a pretty perfect road car: more power and torque than the 86 (enough to feel exciting), but also not powerful to the point where you can drive it lazily and still be fast-- you still have to work the car.

Yeah, Porsche's flat-sixes are the greatest things. They're pretty torque-y and they sound so good. Each motor sounds different, but they all sound great. I want a Porsche so badly, but I think I want something older. I really want something pre-1975 so I can do whatever I want to the car without having to smog it, but sadly I think I'll probably be priced out of that market forever now... every year prices increase massively. You can't even buy a rusted-out rolling chassis for an old car for under $10k now... it's ridiculous. Hopefully that bubble will burst at some point :\

[suaveflooder]

Thank you for doing this! It's always good to see a good review of three driver's cars

[thill]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

Thank you for doing this! It's always good to see a good review of three driver's cars

Especially from someone who has extensive time with all three cars