Is the Scion FR-S a bad deal?

[Turbowned]

NathanR, try living up here where you get snow and ice often. The heated mirrors come in handy.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Offering options will only make them more money and more customers. They can always offer a cheap base model but the options and higher trims are where the money is at.

Where is the data that backs this up? Judging by the fact that the whole industry, other than luxury models, has gone to trims instead of stand alone options tells me that you are wrong.

Again, Scion has always been mono spec. Making a low and high trim goes against the mono spec business plan and creates confusion and competition between Scion and Subaru. If you absolutely have to have all the extra options, the RS will probably take care of most of it. The RS tC got push button start over the regular tC, for example.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Quentin

Where is the data that backs this up? Judging by the fact that the whole industry, other than luxury models, has gone to trims instead of stand alone options tells me that you are wrong.

Again, Scion has always been mono spec. Making a low and high trim goes against the mono spec business plan and creates confusion and competition between Scion and Subaru. If you absolutely have to have all the extra options, the RS will probably take care of most of it. The RS tC got push button start over the regular tC, for example.

You need data? If you sell something extra, you can mark it up a little, giving you more profit. I thought that was just common sense.

Toyota is basically competing with Subaru on the same level everywhere else in the world. They are both unique enough to compete while still benefiting both companies regardless. It's a win-win.

Perhaps they should have offered a higher trim as a Toyota in the US while making the Scion even cheaper like the base model in Japan. And it sounds like the Release Series will only be available in one unique color which will limit the appeal.

It's just, when I spend 26-30k dollars on something, I want it to be exactly what I want and to know my money was well spent. Frankly, I'm surprised at how many people compromise when it comes to cars. But I guess most of those people plan to sell them every few years anyway.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

You need data? If you sell something extra, you can mark it up a little, giving you more profit. I thought that was just common sense.

Toyota is basically competing with Subaru on the same level everywhere else in the world. They are both unique enough to compete while still benefiting both companies regardless. It's a win-win.

Perhaps they should have offered a higher trim as a Toyota in the US while making the Scion even cheaper like the base model in Japan. And it sounds like the Release Series will only be available in one unique color which will limit the appeal.

It's just, when I spend 26-30k dollars on something, I want it to be exactly what I want and to know my money was well spent. Frankly, I'm surprised at how many people compromise when it comes to cars. But I guess most of those people plan to sell them every few years anyway.

It stills costs money to offer that additional option. A $28k FR-S might be lot-rot on a Scion floorplan. If no one is willing to spend the money on the option, it reduces the profitability of the vehicle because it has to be marked down to move. This isn't a mom and pops shop that is making things on a one-off basis. There is so much more to it than marking up the manufacturer's cost of an option and the delta to the markup. These decisions are data driven. Every single one. The companies make the choice that, in their opinion, will satisfy the customer while maintaining profitability. They know that they can't please everyone, so they try to please the most people. Most people are happy to look at a few different trims and pick a trim that best fits their wants.

If Americans were the type to actually order cars, way more options would be available. Americans want to drive on the lot the day they want a new car and drive home with a new car. Instant gratification... it is the American way. Most Japanese dealers carry practically zero inventory. You go there, test drive a demo car, and order your car. You don't buy off the lot. That makes a huge difference in how Toyota specs a car to individual countries.

We all compromise on every vehicle we buy to some degree.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Quentin

It stills costs money to make that additional offering. This isn't a mom and pops shop that is making things on a one-off basis. There is so much more to it than marking up the manufacturer's cost of an option and the delta to the markup. These decisions are data driven. Every single one. The companies make the choice that, in their opinion, will satisfy the customer while maintaining profitability. They know that they can't please everyone, so they try to please the most people. Most people are happy to look at a few different trims and pick a trim that best fits their wants. If Americans were the type to actually order cars, way more options would be available. Americans want to drive on the lot the day they want a new car and drive home with a new car. Instant gratification... it is the American way. Most Japanese dealers carry practically zero inventory. You go there, test drive a demo car, and order your car. You don't buy off the lot. That makes a huge difference in how Toyota specs a car to individual countries.

We all compromise on every vehicle we buy to some degree.

The more they produce a part, the cheaper it becomes - economies of scale. They will offer some options such as fog lights and a bunch of aftermarket junk for the Scion FR-S. And they've offered optional seats, shift knobs/e-brake handles, HomeLink, and navigation systems with satellite radio in the past. And I can order those things from Subaru as replacement parts so I don't see why not. The keyless start and auto/dual-zone climate controls can only be made in another trim such as a release series car. Fair enough. I just hope the HID/LED's will be offered at some point or can be imported and replaced easily enough without costing an arm and a leg.

[HotLeopardMama]

Originally Posted by Kire

but that's part of the problem. although the BRZ offers some desirable amenities, its looks is not for everyone. i, for 1, find the front bumper, rear spoiler, and fake side vents of the BRZ ugly. so basically, i have to choose between a car who's exterior is more attractive to me while the interior being less attractive, or vice versa. if scion would only offer a-la-cart optioning for the FRS, they would make a lot more buyers happy while making additional profit from the options at the same time. i would love me an FRS with HID and dual climate...

I liked the BRZ's exterior better, but with limited availability and much higher mark-up plus whatever dealer add-ons for additional roundabout mark-ups... I just didn't want to pay that much more than what I pad for the FR-S. Didn't want leather and I don't like Subaru's dual climate control--and NAV I didn't really care about either way, except for its more sleek look.

I like my FR-S' interior better, especially with the red accents, however, it's head unit is ugly... I miss steering wheel controls, but I'm not sure if the BRZ has those either. I would've liked to get the BRZ cuz I thought my fiance's white Outback XT and a white BRZ would make for a neat couple photo, but we can just open our hoods instead to add focus on the Suburu stamps all up under my hood.

[Moto-P]

I'll be ripping it apart to customize it my way so it made more sense, over my proposed 10+ years of ownership, that I will just get the FRS now,and perhaps a BRZ later used with all the factory goodies (or even a Scion updated ones if they will ever come out with Toyota 86's GTLimited bits. )


Wekfest 2012 Long Beach CA, Scion FRS by Moto@Club4AG, on Flickr

Got me the Toyota 86 black-tail and clear front marker from a guy who wanted to trade my Scion parts for his 86 in Hokkaido japan.
Working on what to do with the $3200 that will take to modify the HID part with Toyota 86 LED system housing, ballasts, controllers, ride height sensor, and harness. But again I'm not in too much of a hurry till the right opportunity comes.

yes, if you want these things all part of the original car, the BRZ is a great deal, as long as you can find one with no $7000 dealer markup and before November this year... LOL

[nathanR]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Heated mirrors are for defogging/defrosting them so you can still use them in the winter or early morning.

Originally Posted by Turbowned

NathanR, try living up here where you get snow and ice often. The heated mirrors come in handy.

Yeah, I know what they're for and why some people like them (I'm from Upstate New York), but I still think they're superfluous. That's the "old school" in me I guess.

[DantKR]

Well, looks like I'm getting a BRZ limited.... <________<;

[phillip]

Here are some bits of information I gathered while car shopping that might help you with prices. It sounds like you don't plan on getting one until next year, which is a good idea! Subaru has a VIP program that lets you get a car for 2% below invoice, and will probably be available to use next year. For more info on that go here. That should significantly bring the price down of whatever you purchase. It will probably be in effect for the BRZ sometime next year.

Since the 1 series was mentioned in this thread and I happen to know a good deal about them now, I'll also comment on that (even though the OP isn't interested in one, it's always good to know your options). BMW has a program called European Delivery. You get the car for about $4k cheaper (depending on base, packages, etc) and get to drive around in Germany for a couple weeks. With the money you save you can get the plane tickets over, hotels, etc. Basically a free German vacation. You can check out what price you might pay here. You should be able to get it for about $500 over the invoice price (after selecting the Munich European Delivery dropdown on the right). Another option (the route I took which netted me a 2011 135i with every option/package for $36.6k after tax) is to look at 'factory cars.' Essentially, people high up at the dealership get to pick a car, spec it however they want, and drive it up to 5k miles. Then it is sold as a 'new' car (since it has technically been owned by the dealership the whole time) at about $10k below the original MSRP (depending on warranty time remaining, miles, etc). I seriously considered the ED program since I work for a German company and wouldn't have to pay for my flight over there, but I loved all the options I got on mine.

What I learned car shopping is that paying anywhere near MSRP is a ripoff, especially if it's to jump on a car that will be selling for several thousand dollars less in a year's time (when you'll actually be able to find one with the options/packages you want). Since you're looking at a 2014 model anyway it seems, I imagine there's going to be a big shakeup in options/pricing anyway (rumors of convertible, sti, etc...) so if you're set on a FRS/BRZ it would be a good idea to wait another year anyway. Less problems from the factory, lower price, more options.

[DCT223]

I feel like this topic is kinda redundant..... there will never be a win... always will have arguments for both brands of the car...

Personally why did I choose the FR-S?

I liked the styling better for the FR-S/86, the front end looks more aggressive vs the BRZ. I didnt like the big plastic part of the bumper on the BRZ nor the side vent of the BRZ, didnt like the spoiler, rather go wingless or a lip, something more subtle.

I was looking for a fun affordable sports car for my daily driver, dont need all the bells and whistles of auto climate control, leather seats, push start etc etc etc... I was never a fan of leather seats.. they get hot in the sun, overtime wear out and start cracking, you slide around etc etc...(BTW the seats in the FRS are nice, really firm and hold you in, I have a lot of complements on the seats from people who dont even know what the car is) I never cared for auto climate control... its def nice to have but its def not necessary... plus i usually drive with the windows cracked/open and usually dont use the A/C unless its blistering hot outside or I have a passenger. Push button start is cool... but common? where is the satisfaction of turning the key to hear the engine crank and start? idk maybe im old school. Also i cant say this wasnt a factor, but reading reviews regarding the suspension differences of the FRS VS BRZ I prefer a stiffer damper and a softer spring. For a majority of the time I'm going to be keeping my FRS stock... my s14 is money hungry enough.. ill be on the streets if i start moding the FRS.

Also.. scion pure pricing... All scion dealers should abide by this and sell it at MSRP listed price.. Now does it happen everywhere.. as you can read around this forum.. no... not sure what you can do if a scion dealer does a mark up.. Pure price is definitely a good thing at least right now.. my friend in japan tells me 86's there are being marked up a ton of money due to demand.. so something that could happen with the BRZ.

Now dont get me wrong... the BRZ lights im def a fan, the halos, the factory HIDs and leveling controls.. how sweet is that! the FRS lights def are pretty plain... I really wish they had the same headlights at the JDM/Euro 86 but one day i'll prob upgrade to the GT86 lights and leveling controls.. hopefully the install of the leveling isnt too bad. the NAVI option for the BRZ is nice.. i optioned for the bespoke unit for the FRS, but its not in yet so I have yet to play with it.. but reading the manual online it seems that to get some type of routing/navigation it has to link up with your iphone.. i dled the app and it looks a bit primitive.. hopefully some updates will be coming out soon that will make it better.


So all in all.. it really depends on the driver you are and what preferences matter to you... BRZ has more convenience options, maybe for someone who will be driving the car around town more than the track. FRS is just what you need, no fancy gadgets, great for driving around and track time, more sporty look and feel.

thats my 2 cents.

BTW... really? people are disappointed there are no steering wheel controls??? dont think those are necessary... something tells me toyota/subaru didnt put those there for a reason... IE the wheel should be simple, nothing distracting you to steer and control the car.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Moto-P

I'll be ripping it apart to customize it my way so it made more sense, over my proposed 10+ years of ownership, that I will just get the FRS now,and perhaps a BRZ later used with all the factory goodies (or even a Scion updated ones if they will ever come out with Toyota 86's GTLimited bits. )

Got me the Toyota 86 black-tail and clear front marker from a guy who wanted to trade my Scion parts for his 86 in Hokkaido japan.
Working on what to do with the $3200 that will take to modify the HID part with Toyota 86 LED system housing, ballasts, controllers, ride height sensor, and harness. But again I'm not in too much of a hurry till the right opportunity comes.

yes, if you want these things all part of the original car, the BRZ is a great deal, as long as you can find one with no $7000 dealer markup and before November this year... LOL

Yeah, the prospect of modding it to my liking sounds kind of fun. But yikes, $3200 to replace it with the 86's HID's? That's even more than I thought! Would you have any idea how much the leather/Alcantara front seats would cost to replace?

I won't be in a position to afford this car for a few months anyway but I may just try and wait to see if next year's model offers the HID's/LED's.

[Symbiont]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

OK, well let me put it this way. For an extra $500 over an FR-S with BeSpoke, you can get the BRZ Premium with:

-Voice-Activated Navigation/DVD Player/XM Satellite Radio/Traffic with Android Support
-HID Headlights
-LED Daytime Running Lights
-Red Stitched Leather E-Brake Handle
-Premium Cloth Front and Rear Seats
-Trunk Liner

Those options don't add weight and improve the quality, look, feel, usability, and night-time visability. As another member said, if the FR-S had only included HID/LED headlamps and the red stitched leather e-brake handle for the same price as they are selling now, it would have been a much better deal!

This is one of the two reasons that I am now driving a SWP BRZ Premium rather than an Asphalt FR-S.

I also like the front 'vents' and bumper better than the FR-S. The bumper grew on me, and I think it looks... classier? I dunno.

Also, Satin White Pearl doesn't cost an extra 220USD like Whiteout does.

[hNt]

Originally Posted by Moto-P

I'll be ripping it apart to customize it my way so it made more sense, over my proposed 10+ years of ownership, that I will just get the FRS now,and perhaps a BRZ later used with all the factory goodies (or even a Scion updated ones if they will ever come out with Toyota 86's GTLimited bits. )


Wekfest 2012 Long Beach CA, Scion FRS by Moto@Club4AG, on Flickr

Got me the Toyota 86 black-tail and clear front marker from a guy who wanted to trade my Scion parts for his 86 in Hokkaido japan.
Working on what to do with the $3200 that will take to modify the HID part with Toyota 86 LED system housing, ballasts, controllers, ride height sensor, and harness. But again I'm not in too much of a hurry till the right opportunity comes.

yes, if you want these things all part of the original car, the BRZ is a great deal, as long as you can find one with no $7000 dealer markup and before November this year... LOL

Hey Moto

First off thank you for each and every one of your posts! They have been very insightful and have made the wait for these cars much more exciting. I, as well as others I'm sure, hope you will continue to share with us your experience with the car along with its modifications.

I wanted to ask you which antenna replacement you purchased, from where and at what cost, along with the rear spoiler. Also you mentioned you installed an 86 black-tail. What were you referring to and could you provide a detailed image?Are there any clear side-markers that don't cost an arm and leg?