follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum - FT86CLUB > Off-Topic Discussions > Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions

Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions Discuss all other cars and automotive news here.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-02-2021, 11:06 AM   #29
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '06 Cayman S, '17 GTI Sport
Location: NC
Posts: 2,470
Thanks: 2,317
Thanked 1,389 Times in 793 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
To me, the whole point of the article, to me, is that Americans with sports car buying power, (more so than similar demographics in other countries) are "over" numbers cars. And want the experience.

Stark contrast to the Germans, for instance, who think if something is faster and more efficient it's better.

I'm generalizing, but it certainly seems those are their reasons every time a newer, more detached, generation of German car comes out.
__________________
Current: '12 C63 AMG P31 & '17 VW GTI Sport
'06 Porsche Cayman S - sold and missed

'13 SWP BRZ-L - Innovate Supercharged - RIP, claimed by VIR T10

'07 S2000 - DD & track rat - sold
'92 GS-R - 300k club member - sold
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to WolfpackS2k For This Useful Post:
ermax (03-02-2021), Irace86.2.0 (03-02-2021)
Old 03-02-2021, 12:56 PM   #30
Irace86.2.0
Non Sequitur
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 4,765
Thanks: 3,615
Thanked 3,608 Times in 2,055 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
To me, the whole point of the article, to me, is that Americans with sports car buying power, (more so than similar demographics in other countries) are "over" numbers cars. And want the experience.

Stark contrast to the Germans, for instance, who think if something is faster and more efficient it's better.

I'm generalizing, but it certainly seems those are their reasons every time a newer, more detached, generation of German car comes out.
I agree. The power and lap times wars may have hit a peak. With the future looking more like EVs, at least the enthusiasts want more than ever for a more analog experience, which includes a stick, three pedals and rowing their own.
__________________
Irace86.2.0 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 01:23 PM   #31
Irace86.2.0
Non Sequitur
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 4,765
Thanks: 3,615
Thanked 3,608 Times in 2,055 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
LOL to the "I talked to many people and they all want MTs" theme.
Talking to other car "enthusiasts" and saying they all agree is not a great sample. It is like going down to the local sailing club and asking if sail is better than power boats. Try going to your local mall and asking random people what they want and I bet you get a totally different response.
The very fact that they still offer and sell many MT cars in other markets would show that they would sell them here as well if there was more demand. The demand just isn't worth their while and THEY know it.
I love MT and will be sad to see them all go but I am not presumptuous enough to think that because a handful of people want them (in the big picture) that they are going to keep selling them.

Lament the downfall of the manual but don't try to blame the manufacturers for a purely North Americian mindset!
There is demand, but apparently the bean counters think the demand isn’t worth the effort. This is why the C8 has no manual option. Sometimes they don’t know demand exists like Porsche with the 911R and manual GT3 variants. Sometimes demand is there, but again, the bean counters decide it is best to invest in something else. For instance, Ford has eliminated sedans because they say there isn’t enough demand, but they sold more sedans than many vehicles that still exist. What they really meant to say is we think there is more demand with crossovers and can make more profits. They have other motivations besides profits like avoiding average fleet fuel economy standards. Also, just looking at EV sales as a percentage of total sales, EVs seem to have no demand, but we know sales keep rising and compared to their competitors, EVs are doing well. I say that because no one looking at EV sales before Tesla would have said there was demand. Demand changes, but the current landscape of manual options doesn’t allow buyers to choose manuals or to settle for a manual like they settle for an automatic.

I do agree that no one is really complaining or demanding a change outside of a small set of vocal enthusiasts. It’ll be the same with sedans when they eventually dwindle. It’ll be the same with ICE when they go. It’ll be the same when they mandate autonomous driving and no one is allowed to drive for themselves. The only ones complaining will be a small percentage of vocal enthusiasts.
__________________
Irace86.2.0 is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
AnalogMan (03-06-2021), Dadhawk (03-02-2021), ermax (03-02-2021), The Red One (03-04-2021)
Old 03-02-2021, 02:34 PM   #32
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: '13 FR-S (#3 of 1st 86)
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 15,843
Thanks: 30,075
Thanked 18,029 Times in 8,500 Posts
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
There is demand, but apparently the bean counters think the demand isnít worth the effort.
The critical difference between MT demand and EV demand is one is continuing to decrease and one is continuing to increase.

Stating the obvious, when you're in a business where you have to project out what the buying public will want 3 to 5 years in the future, you are going to only focus on one of those.

The lose of sedans (and wagons) totally sucks, but unfortunately if they don't build them, I can't buy them so I have to move on. I think that is a far greater loss than the MT.
__________________

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 03:19 PM   #33
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '06 Cayman S, '17 GTI Sport
Location: NC
Posts: 2,470
Thanks: 2,317
Thanked 1,389 Times in 793 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
There's plenty of existing lightly used sedans for you to buy and drive the rest of your life.

Instead of giving in and buying the sh*t they force on you.
__________________
Current: '12 C63 AMG P31 & '17 VW GTI Sport
'06 Porsche Cayman S - sold and missed

'13 SWP BRZ-L - Innovate Supercharged - RIP, claimed by VIR T10

'07 S2000 - DD & track rat - sold
'92 GS-R - 300k club member - sold
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to WolfpackS2k For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (03-02-2021)
Old 03-02-2021, 03:36 PM   #34
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: '13 FR-S (#3 of 1st 86)
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 15,843
Thanks: 30,075
Thanked 18,029 Times in 8,500 Posts
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
There's plenty of existing lightly used sedans for you to buy and drive the rest of your life.

Instead of giving in and buying the sh*t they force on you.
That's the plan.
__________________

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 03:46 PM   #35
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '06 Cayman S, '17 GTI Sport
Location: NC
Posts: 2,470
Thanks: 2,317
Thanked 1,389 Times in 793 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Its quite upsetting, but we do what we can.
__________________
Current: '12 C63 AMG P31 & '17 VW GTI Sport
'06 Porsche Cayman S - sold and missed

'13 SWP BRZ-L - Innovate Supercharged - RIP, claimed by VIR T10

'07 S2000 - DD & track rat - sold
'92 GS-R - 300k club member - sold
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to WolfpackS2k For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (03-02-2021)
Old 03-02-2021, 04:14 PM   #36
Irace86.2.0
Non Sequitur
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 4,765
Thanks: 3,615
Thanked 3,608 Times in 2,055 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
The critical difference between MT demand and EV demand is one is continuing to decrease and one is continuing to increase.

Stating the obvious, when you're in a business where you have to project out what the buying public will want 3 to 5 years in the future, you are going to only focus on one of those.

The lose of sedans (and wagons) totally sucks, but unfortunately if they don't build them, I can't buy them so I have to move on. I think that is a far greater loss than the MT.
Exactly. Eventually the only sedans offered could be inexpensive, crappy ones that no one wants or really expensive ones that few can afford then the manufacturers will claim there is no demand.

If we used the landscape of available cars as a barometer for what demand exists then we learn that the demand is for FWD crossovers, but luxury owners seem to demand AWD and RWD. Orrrrr, maybe FWD is cheap and better for fuel economy. I think the manual transmission was just a victim of profits. I donít know if demand ever existed for the manual transmission. It was just cheaper and better for fuel economy and automatics were expensive and worse until they werenít. All Iím saying is the manual transmission didnít need to be phased out. It just was because it wasnít needed.
__________________
Irace86.2.0 is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (03-02-2021), Ohio Enthusiast (03-02-2021)
Old 03-03-2021, 11:08 PM   #37
serialk11r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Drives: '06 AM V8V Coupe
Location: United States of America
Posts: 5,227
Thanks: 275
Thanked 1,018 Times in 732 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
Porsche intentionally messed with the Cayman's gearing. (to make it less desirable than 911s? I dunno). The first 3 gears are extra tall, 4th is pretty normal, and 5th and 6th are shorter than you'd expect. Somewhat annoying. 6th gear combined with the final drive is barely taller than a BRZ.
I think the gear ratios are meant for track usage on the most powerful models (close ratio short high gears to hit top speed), and then they said "nope don't want to make different ratios for anything else" and dropped the same transmission into the rest of the lineup.

The 911's 7 speed box is pretty versatile, since the 7th is a true cruising gear, and 1st is a touch shorter. The problem is of course that in North America, you kind of can just skip to 7th since you won't need to be accelerating at >>100mph anywhere but the salt flats or something.
serialk11r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 01:33 AM   #38
Irace86.2.0
Non Sequitur
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 4,765
Thanks: 3,615
Thanked 3,608 Times in 2,055 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
If they need to make the gearing like this for top end then they need to make a variable final drive ratio or something to switch between this ridiculous gearing and something useable.

Quote:
From March 7, 2012 Autocar review of the 991 Carrera (base, not S) with manual transmission:

1st 3.91/6.0 47mph 7800rpm
2nd 2.29/10.2 79mph 7800rpm
3rd 1.55/15.0 117mph 7800rpm
4th 1.30/17.9 140mph 7800rpm
5th 1.08/21.6 168mph 7800rpm
6th 0.88/26.5 180mph 6794rpm
7th 0.71/32.8 180mph(claimed) 5481rpm
Final drive ratio 3.44
__________________
Irace86.2.0 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 09:04 AM   #39
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '06 Cayman S, '17 GTI Sport
Location: NC
Posts: 2,470
Thanks: 2,317
Thanked 1,389 Times in 793 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
I think the gear ratios are meant for track usage on the most powerful models (close ratio short high gears to hit top speed), and then they said "nope don't want to make different ratios for anything else" and dropped the same transmission into the rest of the lineup.

The 911's 7 speed box is pretty versatile, since the 7th is a true cruising gear, and 1st is a touch shorter. The problem is of course that in North America, you kind of can just skip to 7th since you won't need to be accelerating at >>100mph anywhere but the salt flats or something.
It's a good theory but I don't think one that checks out. The gear ratios have been the same since 2006. There wasn't a model with more than 335 hp until 2016, 10 years later.
__________________
Current: '12 C63 AMG P31 & '17 VW GTI Sport
'06 Porsche Cayman S - sold and missed

'13 SWP BRZ-L - Innovate Supercharged - RIP, claimed by VIR T10

'07 S2000 - DD & track rat - sold
'92 GS-R - 300k club member - sold
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2021, 01:49 AM   #40
Irace86.2.0
Non Sequitur
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 4,765
Thanks: 3,615
Thanked 3,608 Times in 2,055 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wha...urns-its-back/

I think this is a case of enthusiasts wanting a manual, but many enthusiasts donít buy new, so used demand is higher than new demand like Iíve said before. They said only 4% of F-Types were manual, but the manual was only available on the V6, so not the R or SVR where many enthusiasts are buyers, albeit wealthy enthusiasts. What enthusiast wants the base power? Mustang GT350 and GT350R came with a manual, but not the F-Type R model. Oh well.

https://carbuzz.com/features/here-s-...thusiasts-want

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...o-enthusiasts/

Like I said, it seems like enthusiasts buy used. Makes sense. As enthusiasts, we are car savvy. We donít buy the first releases or years of new models. We tend to modify cars, so we can add a new aftermarket bumper or carbon fiber lip to a used car; no need for a new one. We want to buy the best performance car we can, so we could buy a new car or a used car that is more powerful. I could go on.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune...tang-cost/amp/

Comparing then vs now and adjusting for inflation, cars are more expensive today, yet people make less money, so of course it is that much harder owning a second vehicle or single vehicle, as an enthusiast. It is just another reason why sports cars are going and so is the manual with them.
__________________
Irace86.2.0 is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (03-06-2021)
Old 03-06-2021, 02:43 AM   #41
Irace86.2.0
Non Sequitur
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 4,765
Thanks: 3,615
Thanked 3,608 Times in 2,055 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Probably also doesn't help that the manual in the F-Type had a long throw according to the article and wasn't that great.

Probably also doesn't help that most sports cars get dealer markups, especially those ultra rare manual models. I feel like every used car post on craigslist gets the, "rare manual" title, so I wouldn't be surprised if the dealers do the same.
__________________
Irace86.2.0 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2021, 03:22 AM   #42
Red-86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Drives: 86 (sold), 370Z
Location: Australia
Posts: 353
Thanks: 518
Thanked 477 Times in 224 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
There is demand, but apparently the bean counters think the demand isnít worth the effort. This is why the C8 has no manual option.
Same as the Supra, Toyota decided the extra cost and development of offering a manual wasnít justified in potential sales.

Quote:
Sometimes they donít know demand exists like Porsche with the 911R and manual GT3 variants.
Those are quite special cars and low volume. The bulk of Porsches sold over the last decade have been PDK, even when manuals were offered.

Quote:
Ford has eliminated sedans because they say there isnít enough demand, but they sold more sedans than many vehicles that still exist.
I think Ford, like many makers, just wants to get out of making cars so that they can focus on the dominant market segments, SUVs/crossovers and pickup trucks. Rationalising this way, reducing the volume of models you make and therefore reducing complexity, can make hard nosed business sense. Just a shame for those who still want a sedan, hatchback or coupe. At least the Mustang still lives... for now.

Quote:
EVs are doing well.
In some markets. It varies from country to country based on charging infrastructure, prices, and local incentives. Here in Australia the lack of rapid charging stations, lack of govt incentives to go electric, and range anxiety combined with the still very high price of electric cars, mean they make up a pittance of this market. I donít see it changing within 5 years unless the govt changes their mind and really gets behind electric, including massive subsidies and infrastructure.

Quote:
I do agree that no one is really complaining or demanding a change outside of a small set of vocal enthusiasts. Itíll be the same with sedans when they eventually dwindle. Itíll be the same with ICE when they go. Itíll be the same when they mandate autonomous driving and no one is allowed to drive for themselves. The only ones complaining will be a small percentage of vocal enthusiasts.
This. Most people welcome the day their full autonomous electric crossover will relieve them of all driving responsibilities. Majority of people wonít miss ICE, manuals, low riding sporty cars, or driving. Just that tiny subset of enthusiasts, and I donít think we will be profitable enough to justify the common brands making cars for us. Youíll still be able to get something sporty, but it will a premium product at a premium price.
Red-86 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
owner's manuals Hen3ry Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 23 06-27-2015 08:45 PM
look at this BRZ ad, and see how many lies you can find in it...LOL giorgi0424 BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics 20 12-16-2014 06:29 PM
Lies to get out of work IntotheOcean Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 32 10-31-2012 06:29 AM
SOA and BRZ Release lies SkullWorks BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics 62 05-02-2012 08:49 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.