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View Poll Results: Which jab have you had?
Pfizer 11 42.31%
Moderna 8 30.77%
Johnson & Johnson 2 7.69%
AstraZeneca 2 7.69%
Novavax 0 0%
Sputnik 1 3.85%
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Homebrew with a big dose of something special 2 7.69%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-12-2020, 05:33 PM   #211
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I won't be getting the vaccine until 2022 or so once side effects are known......the australia vaccine was based on the HIV virus so people that put their hand up have been having false positives for HIV.


Staying focused on the vaccine...
My understanding was that most vaccine designs were done within a few weeks of release of the virus genetic sequence back in February. Everything since then has been testing, certifications, etc. I'm sure there were more that dropped out of contention due to one reason or another.

Cancer isn't a virus, it's a mutation to your own cells that your immune system doesn't recognize as dangerous because they resemble healthy cells. A vaccine teaches your immune system to be better prepared to fight stuff that comes from outside your body. Think of a vaccine as a practice test so that it is better prepared for the real thing. The coronavirus can still enter your body, but you immune system is basically waiting for it with the exact right weapon to kill it before it can replicate.
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Old 12-12-2020, 05:46 PM   #212
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Staying focused on the vaccine...
My understanding was that most vaccine designs were done within a few weeks of release of the virus genetic sequence back in February. Everything since then has been testing, certifications, etc. I'm sure there were more that dropped out of contention due to one reason or another.

Cancer isn't a virus, it's a mutation to your own cells that your immune system doesn't recognize as dangerous because they resemble healthy cells. A vaccine teaches your immune system to be better prepared to fight stuff that comes from outside your body. Think of a vaccine as a practice test so that it is better prepared for the real thing. The coronavirus can still enter your body, but you immune system is basically waiting for it with the exact right weapon to kill it before it can replicate.

So, if you've already had Covid 19 you likely don't need one.


Why the annual flu shot then? All the various strains/mutations?
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Old 12-12-2020, 08:19 PM   #213
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So, if you've already had Covid 19 you likely don't need one.


Why the annual flu shot then? All the various strains/mutations?
This is brand new biotech. mRNA with instructions to create the spike protein is encased in a simple vehicle that cells readily absorb. Cells spit out the spike protein and the body says "Hey, that ain't right." and gobble them. Then the body knows to quickly attack those same spikes on the Rona.


I think the body's natural immune response is to something other than the spike. @Irace86.2.0, amirite?
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Old 12-12-2020, 09:35 PM   #214
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This is brand new biotech. mRNA with instructions to create the spike protein is encased in a simple vehicle that cells readily absorb. Cells spit out the spike protein and the body says "Hey, that ain't right." and gobble them. Then the body knows to quickly attack those same spikes on the Rona.


I think the body's natural immune response is to something other than the spike. @Irace86.2.0, amirite?

I'm not sure if you answered my question or not lol Well put though.



If you've had Covid 19 your body should recognize the enemy the second time around and respond much quicker, no? This is my thinking.
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Old 12-12-2020, 09:42 PM   #215
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I won't be getting the vaccine until 2022 or so once side effects are known......the australia vaccine was based on the HIV virus so people that put their hand up have been having false positives for HIV.





The collapse of the financial system based on the trillions of dollars owed, everything has been for short term gain and massive profits. Cant keep the unsustainable model going.



Small part is research into what your spending so they can create products, services or advertising that will fleece you of your $$$$.

Tracking costs fuck all, we buy and they use our own devices that track us.....phones, computers etc.
Bank accounts, stalkbook log/track everything.

Watch snowden they are able to read and scan the whole web...private messages etc.

We are all apart of the biggest pyramid scheme going......illuminati at the top.
I'm pretty sure those false positives won't be forever and are just temporary, and I am also pretty sure there are more sensitive tests that can be done or ways to distinguish the difference between the vaccine and actual HIV, but obviously that isn't ideal by any means.

Regardless, that is problematic for many reasons. Besides the obvious, that anyone getting a false positive will be freaked out, it would lead to a contact tracing nightmare for HIV. IV drug users, prostitutes and other high risk groups would just flat out assume they didn't have HIV if they got the vaccine and a test came back negative, so actual HIV would likely spread among them. On the corollary, many monogamous couples may assume their partner cheated or may try to pursue treatments liking taking retroviral medications or other drugs like immunostimulants that are typically taken by HIV patients. It is a good thing they abandoned this trial, even if the HIV clamp proteins made the vaccine more effective. We all should be thankful for the individuals who are participating in these trials, regardless of their reasons, and regardless of the fact that this issue didn't lead to lasting problems or any illness.

Responding to your attached image:

--HIV: There is more money in the treatments than the cure of HIV, but we have essentially cured HIV with our treatments. Obviously a preventative vaccine would be great--if not for everyone then at least frontline workers like healthcare workers and police officers and laboratory technicians, as well as, high risk groups like promiscuous people and IV drug users.

Also, HIV is not COVID. While a million people die each year of HIV complications, the concentration of those that die is not so widely distributed. Most of the deaths are in Sub-Saharan Africa, where 30% of deaths can come from HIV complications, but in the US, the deaths are 0.26% of all cause mortality or 1.85 in 100,000, and it is primarily concentrated in IV drug users who are poor or on the streets. Compare that to COVID where we have a death rate under 1 in a 1000 in many places, and it is affecting all classes (not equally, but close enough), and it is affecting the economy. Most people in the US who aren't on the streets, addicts and poor will seek medical care and be able to cure themselves. In this sense, COVID =/= HIV.

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-event...cas-and-europe

https://ourworldindata.org/hiv-aids

@Spuds ...make sure to read what follows...

--Cancer: We actually do have vaccines for some cancers. Do we have some universal silver bullet that works on all cancers? No. Maybe this will happen some day, but it is unlikely because of the nature of cancer. For some types of cancers like cervical cancer (and related cancers), that are almost primarily linked to two types of HPVs, the HPV vaccine is most definitely an existing cancer vaccine, so that statement was false. We also have vaccine-like-compounds that are treatments and not prophylactics, that wake up the immune system to the presence of a tumor/cancer.

Again, this is a difference of severity when we try to compare it to COVID.

--Common Cold: The common cold is an upper respiratory infection with the associated mild symptoms. There are over 200 different viruses that are responsible for the common cold. These viruses also mutate rapidly. Unless someone is immunocompromised, the likelihood that the common cold would lead to serious illness or death is fairly rare. Because of all the reasons above, the ability to make a vaccine is hard and the demand for a Common Cold vaccine is not high. Most people don't take the yearly flu vaccine, which actually can kill and debilitate.

Again, the common cold is far from being comparable to COVID.



I think you need to look up the definition of a Pyramid Scheme because you seem to be confusing its common usage with some other hierarchy metaphor.
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Old 12-12-2020, 09:45 PM   #216
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So, if you've already had Covid 19 you likely don't need one.


Why the annual flu shot then? All the various strains/mutations?
By my limited understanding, yes, influenza, like many other viruses, mutates quickly enough that you need new antibodies each year when transmission is highest. Basically the vaccine helps stamp down the most common strains that year.

I'm not sure myself how the coronavirus vaccine works, but I recall hearing about multiple strains, so I would think the vaccine would still be a good idea for those that have had covid.
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Old 12-12-2020, 09:54 PM   #217
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By my limited understanding, yes, influenza, like many other viruses, mutates quickly enough that you need new antibodies each year when transmission is highest. Basically the vaccine helps stamp down the most common strains that year.

I'm not sure myself how the coronavirus vaccine works, but I recall hearing about multiple strains, so I would think the vaccine would still be a good idea for those that have had covid.

I read a while back about possible multiple strains. I'll have to dig further.
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Old 12-12-2020, 09:54 PM   #218
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@Spuds ...make sure to read what follows...

--Cancer: We actually do have vaccines for some cancers. Do we have some universal silver bullet that works on all cancers? No. Maybe this will happen some day, but it is unlikely because of the nature of cancer. For some types of cancers like cervical cancer (and related cancers), that are almost primarily linked to two types of HPVs, the HPV vaccine is most definitely an existing cancer vaccine, so that statement was false. We also have vaccine-like-compounds that are treatments and not prophylactics, that wake up the immune system to the presence of a tumor/cancer.

Again, this is a difference of severity when we try to compare it to COVID.

--Common Cold: The common cold is an upper respiratory infection with the associated mild symptoms. There are over 200 different viruses that are responsible for the common cold. These viruses also mutate rapidly. Unless someone is immunocompromised, the likelihood that the common cold would lead to serious illness or death is fairly rare. Because of all the reasons above, the ability to make a vaccine is hard and the demand for a Common Cold vaccine is not high. Most people don't take the yearly flu vaccine, which actually can kill and debilitate.

Again, the common cold is far from being comparable to COVID.
It sounds like you are saying the hpv vaccine is for a virus that causes a specific kind of damage which can result in cancerous growth. I do not think that means there is actually a vaccine for the cancer cells themselves, though perhaps I am misunderstanding the mechanics of it?

Agreed on the common cold, I just didn't feel the need to go into that much detail.
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Old 12-12-2020, 09:56 PM   #219
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I'm not sure if you answered my question or not lol Well put though.



If you've had Covid 19 your body should recognize the enemy the second time around and respond much quicker, no? This is my thinking.
Oops, I guess I forgot to close the deal.
I believe the professional consensus is that naturally acquired covid immunity doesn't last and is vulnerable to mutated strains. The spike doesn't change.
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Old 12-12-2020, 10:05 PM   #220
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So, if you've already had Covid 19 you likely don't need one.


Why the annual flu shot then? All the various strains/mutations?
I would get the vaccine, even if I had COVID prior because, at worst, it will act as a booster for your immune system that could be waning. There is a possibility that the vaccine could be more effective than an asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic person. I'm not sure.

Yes, we need an annual flu shot because Flu A mutates quickly and tends to be more deadly like the H1N1 variants known for several pandemics. Flu B mutates slowly, and most people have some type of childhood immunity, so they will only get Flu B a few times in their life at most. Scientists go around the world and look at mutating flu variants in birds (avian), pigs (swine) and other local animals that could cross over to humans.
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Old 12-12-2020, 10:24 PM   #221
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It sounds like you are saying the hpv vaccine is for a virus that causes a specific kind of damage which can result in cancerous growth. I do not think that means there is actually a vaccine for the cancer cells themselves, though perhaps I am misunderstanding the mechanics of it?

Agreed on the common cold, I just didn't feel the need to go into that much detail.
No. You are right that there is distinction to be made, but generally, the HPV vaccine is taken to specifically prevent the cancers that can come from HPV. It can also be to avoid genital warts, but this is secondary, and there is no tertiary roll to try to prevent all form of HPV that are otherwise asymptomatic or rarely symptomatic or disease causing.

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Three vaccines are available to prevent infection by some HPV types: Gardasil, Gardasil 9 and Cervarix; all three protect against initial infection with HPV types 16 and 18, which cause most of the HPV-associated cancer cases. Gardasil also protects against HPV types 6 and 11, which cause 90% of genital warts. Gardasil is a recombinant quadrivalent vaccine, whereas Cervarix is bivalent, and is prepared from virus-like particles (VLP) of the L1 capsid protein. Gardasil 9 is nonavalent, it has the potential to prevent about 90% of cervical, vulvar, vaginal, and anal cancers. It can protect for HPV types 6, 11, 16, 18, 31, 33, 45, 52, and 58; the latter five cause up to 20% of cervical cancers which were not previously covered.
The common cold stuff wasn't directed at you--only the cancer stuff because there is a link between viruses and cancers.

https://www.mdanderson.org/publicati...7-1592202.html
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Old 12-12-2020, 10:36 PM   #222
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This is brand new biotech. mRNA with instructions to create the spike protein is encased in a simple vehicle that cells readily absorb. Cells spit out the spike protein and the body says "Hey, that ain't right." and gobble them. Then the body knows to quickly attack those same spikes on the Rona.


I think the body's natural immune response is to something other than the spike. @Irace86.2.0, amirite?

I think it is likely that the body will make antibodies to the spike protein and other proteins when someone gets COVID, but specifically having antibodies to the spike protein could be better at halting the virus upon reinfection. It could be the case that the body developed many different antibodies when someone got infected, and the body lost some of those antibodies because they weren't prolific enough to hold onto, so a vaccine focused on one protein and thus one antibody could lead to better, specific immunity.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/h...-immunity.html

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Vaccines for some pathogens, like pneumococcal bacteria, induce better immunity than the natural infection does. Early evidence suggests that the Covid-19 vaccines may fall into this category. Volunteers who received the Moderna shot had more antibodies — one marker of immune response — in their blood than did people who had been sick with Covid-19.

In other cases, however, a natural infection is more powerful than a vaccine. For example, having mumps — which can, in rare cases, cause fertility problems in men — generates lifelong immunity, but some people who have received one or two doses of the vaccine still get the disease.

To Mr. Paul’s point: Natural immunity from the coronavirus is fortunately quite strong. A vast majority of people infected produce at least some antibodies and immune cells that can fight off the infection. And the evidence so far suggests that this protection will persist for years, preventing serious illness, if not reinfection.

But there is a “massive dynamic range” in that immune response, with a 200-fold difference in antibody levels.
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Old 12-13-2020, 02:06 AM   #223
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Two things I thought of tonight:

1) If the vaccine doesn't lead to lasting immunity then at what point will they say we need a booster? I'm assuming they will be following the participants of the clinical trials. The vaccine was capable of preventing 90-95% of cases in the study period, but what if that number drops down. At what point do we need a booster? Is it 75%? Is it 50%? The J&J vaccine is apparently only 70% effective, yet I'm sure it'll be an option, so I'm sure there is some threshold where one vaccine will be used over others when supplies are bountiful, or they will say we need a booster of some type. I'm curious because most things don't last forever. Like birth control might be 99% effective for a given event or year or whatever, but in a ten year span the actual odds of not getting pregnant while on the pill is not 99%; it might be 60%. Similarly, if this thing starts to wane then what will be the cut off criteria. I'm not entirely sure. We have booster shots for other vaccines that we received as a child that may be twenty years down the road. We have the yearly flu shot because the flu evolves. I'm curious how this will go.

2) I said it above, but we need to be thankful for those who participated in the trials. Many people did it for personal reasons, but I'm sure many did it because they wanted to serve their country. It reminds me the Minnesota Starvation Experiment done during WWII. If you are not familiar then they are worth checking out.

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/135/6/1347/4663828

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnes...ion_Experiment
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Old 12-13-2020, 03:39 AM   #224
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So, if you've already had Covid 19 you likely don't need one.


Why the annual flu shot then? All the various strains/mutations?
Through my work (virtual) I have had interaction with some European folk who claim to have had Covid twice in a space of one month!! No idea how that works, however the same team of people travelled out to UAE for a workshop, even though the UAE authority has been very clear about travel requirements, they still risked traveling without having had a PCR test in their own country.. Anyway, to cut a very long and embarrassing story short, one of the travellers tested positive scuppering the workshop.

So the team we sent out, having had taken the proper precautions ended up attending the workshop remotely whilst sitting in the next door hotel in UAE!!! The rest of our team was in the UK, safe and happy!!
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