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Old 07-06-2020, 09:15 AM   #15
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Oh man!! This is sooooo petty it is even weirding me out as I type but where does one draw the line? Obviously that's a rhetorical question which if you feel like answering go here.

So for the sake of..... I'm not really sure but I am bored so maybe I'll say for the sake of relieving boredom. Or maybe I won't.

Anyways.

"Catch 22" is hyphenated.

So it's Catch-22 not Catch 22 unless you have been catching 22 balls or something else that's been caught 22 times.

Thank you. Thank you very much, I shall now end this post with a full stop.
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Old 07-06-2020, 07:36 PM   #16
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The other set of regulations call for increased crash protection. These requirements make cars get bigger and heavier in order to comply.

For the most part I agree but, I think the reasoning is different. Bigger and heavier is only a solution for those not wanting to spend more money

Aluminum unibody vehicles and carbon mono-tubs can meet the both requirements but, the issue is $$$$ for development, tooling and production costs for the OEM. Initial costs should be high but, they should make it on the backend.

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Old 07-06-2020, 08:19 PM   #17
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For the most part I agree but, I think the reasoning is different. Bigger and heavier is only a solution for those not wanting to spend more money

Aluminum unibody vehicles and carbon mono-tubs can meet the both requirements but, the issue is $$$$ for development, tooling and production costs for the OEM. Initial costs should be high but, they should make it on the backend.

That is one part of the equation yes. Could probably write a book on all the aspects involved.
The R&D costs would not be significant at all but the materials costs would be huge. Steel is dirt cheap and requires very little to form it. Aluminum is considerably more expensive and carbon is quite labour intensive to work. When looking at the volumes required to mass produce your standard consumer car the costs would simply be prohibitive. As cool as an aluminum and carbon tubed 86 may sound the $100,000 base price would not make it worth while. The cars that do make extensive use of these materials cost what they do beyond the badge no matter what people my say.
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Old 07-06-2020, 09:56 PM   #18
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That is one part of the equation yes. Could probably write a book on all the aspects involved.
The R&D costs would not be significant at all but the materials costs would be huge. Steel is dirt cheap and requires very little to form it. Aluminum is considerably more expensive and carbon is quite labour intensive to work. When looking at the volumes required to mass produce your standard consumer car the costs would simply be prohibitive. As cool as an aluminum and carbon tubed 86 may sound the $100,000 base price would not make it worth while. The cars that do make extensive use of these materials cost what they do beyond the badge no matter what people my say.

I'm not so sure, given how many OEM's have already switched over without a huge (20k+) jump in price. Granted the larger the OEM the more or a return investment they get. But, yeah less profit = less likely.

FWIW, the Alfa 4C manages Aluminum and CF tub for low 60's and that beauty is one step shy of bespoke! I'd imagine Subaru could do a twin for 40k. After all they already are doing aluminum replaceable panels and the tech lends well across the product range.

Then again Toyota (lexus) spent all the money on the carbon fiber loom for the LFA and hasn't done shit with it since.
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Old 07-06-2020, 10:34 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
That is one part of the equation yes. Could probably write a book on all the aspects involved.
The R&D costs would not be significant at all but the materials costs would be huge. Steel is dirt cheap and requires very little to form it. Aluminum is considerably more expensive and carbon is quite labour intensive to work. When looking at the volumes required to mass produce your standard consumer car the costs would simply be prohibitive. As cool as an aluminum and carbon tubed 86 may sound the $100,000 base price would not make it worth while. The cars that do make extensive use of these materials cost what they do beyond the badge no matter what people my say.



BMW i3; 44k USD and a carbon tub, 7 years ago! It can be done, but they would probably have to spend next to nothing on the powertrain development.
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Old 07-07-2020, 12:55 PM   #20
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BMW lost a ton of money on every single one of those they sold.
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Old 07-07-2020, 02:16 PM   #21
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I'm not so sure, given how many OEM's have already switched over without a huge (20k+) jump in price. Granted the larger the OEM the more or a return investment they get. But, yeah less profit = less likely.

FWIW, the Alfa 4C manages Aluminum and CF tub for low 60's and that beauty is one step shy of bespoke! I'd imagine Subaru could do a twin for 40k. After all they already are doing aluminum replaceable panels and the tech lends well across the product range.

Then again Toyota (lexus) spent all the money on the carbon fiber loom for the LFA and hasn't done shit with it since.
Where are you buying an Alpha C4 for low 60s? They start at $67K which is far from low.
As all the reviews and their rankings among sportscars goes they are giving up way more than people want to sacrifice to meet that price point. It has a very small target consumer demographic in mind.


Example:
Is the Alfa Romeo 4C a Good Car?

No, the 2020 Alfa Romeo 4C isn’t a good car. The 4C has a loud and cramped interior with few amenities. It’s uncomfortable for daily driving thanks to its heavy steering and firm sport-tuned suspension. Also, rear visibility and cargo space are in short supply.
Sure, the 4C’s potent engine and sharp handling are commendable, but overall, this soft-top convertible gives up too much refinement in its pursuit of performance.
Should I Buy the Alfa Romeo 4C?

Skip the 4C. There are many alternatives in the luxury sports car segment that offer sizzling acceleration and poised handling but with a smoother ride and a much comfier interior. Some even cost a lot less than the 4C, like the Porsche Boxster and Toyota Supra.

The North American version requires so much bracing to meet the standards that it is 220 pounds heavier so that pretty much cancels out the tub weight savings.


With annual, world wide, sales numbers of around 2000 vehicles it also does not even come close to being a mass produced car. This is not an application that is going to be used for your average Corolla or even 86. At least not at any form of acceptable price point.


LOL, all in all you could not have picked a better example to my point that it just isn't feasible at the price people would pay.
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Old 07-07-2020, 03:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
BMW lost a ton of money on every single one of those they sold.
Not true, it's just very cleverly designed for manufacturing:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/is-bmw-i3-profitable/

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Munro and associates' founder Sandy Munro feels confident in predicting that -the i3- is not being sold at a loss.
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:17 PM   #23
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LOL, all in all you could not have picked a better example to my point that it just isn't feasible at the price people would pay.



The 4C has gone up in price with each subsequent model year. The price jumped 11k in 2019 when they did away with the coupe model.

The reviews aren't really the direction of my point. When the 4c launched in 2013 it was well loved. Favor died with age it seems. It feels a bit like a Exige/Elise as in you either love them or lament their flaws.



My point was, they still could (and did) do it. As a smaller company with less resources, less production, less customers, and as a company with one hell of a bad rap in quality.

I think Clarkson's review on the Grand Tour (S1,EP5) did it's duality best. There is a lot too hate but, a lot to love. Not unlike reception to our cars.
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