Track Brake Pad Discussion Thread

[Surok]

[B]Wilwood (F/R):
Caliper (F/R): Wilwood 6/4 pot f/r brake upgrade for 86.
[B]Rotor Size (F/R - IE OEM or specify): 330mm front and rear
[B]Compound (F/R): BP20 #pad 7416 for reorder
[B]Tires: Bridgestone Potenza RE002 (235/40R18)

[B]Feedback: fantastic from cold, survives repeated abuse and high speed stops from 250kph, no fade. overheated the front tyres on twisty mountain downhill section and still no brake fade.

Scores:
Dusting (1=high-10=low): 3 (and its a bad red color dust)
Cold bite (1=low-10=high): 6
Hot bite (1=low-10=high): 7
Modulation (1=low-10=high): 8
Noise (1=extremely loud-10=quiet): 2 - honks like that *i have race brakes* noise
Pad Lifespan (1=short-10=long): not sure yet.

Does the brake dust with this combination damage the wheels/paint if not cleaned immediately? Not that I can tell. I don't believe so
Brake ducts: N

[Surok]

Originally Posted by Black Tire

Brake Pad Manufacturer (F/R): CL
Caliper (F/R): Stock
Rotor Size (F/R - IE OEM or specify): Stock
Compound (F/R): RC6
Tires: BF Goodrich Rival 225/45/17

Feedback:
I spent 2 days on the track in the dry with the BF Goodrich Rivals, and 1 day on the track in the rain with the stock Michelin Primacy HC tires. I used the brakes very heavily in several braking zones around the track. There was no discernible fading during the weekend.

The bite is very high, requiring relatively little pedal pressure to achieve very heavy braking force. I could easily have used R-compound tires for this, as it was fairly easy to engage the anti-lock system. I preferred not to engage the anti-lock if possible however, as it would cycle slowly causing quite a disruption to the car in the braking zone. The brakes worked equally well in the wet, and were easier to modulate in these conditions, probably due to less brake force being used.

Pad wear seemed to be quite good. It appears that I have about half of the pad left. I may use these on the street, and buy another set for the track next time. When pads are near the wear limit, they heat the calipers and fluid a bit more due to the rotor being closer to these parts. Look at the photo and it is clear that the pads have been USED. There is some buildup on the pads, which suggests that even though these pads bit well all weekend, they may further benefit from slotted rotors. These pads would easily have lasted for another dry day (or even two) on the track.

Attachment 40688

Attachment 40689

Rotor wear seemed to be almost nonexistent for two dry and one wet track day. It seems the pads wore and not the rotors. See photos:

Attachment 40690

Attachment 40691

The dust seemed very easy to clean off. Much better than I have seen before. I used new Enkei RPF1 wheels and waxed them before the track. There were only a few very small black dots that are still there after using Griot's Garage Spray On Car Wash. I think these would be removable with some solvent (like denatured alcohol). See pictures of the wheels in this thread:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39086

Scores:
Dusting (1=high-10=low): 8
Cold bite (1=low-10=high): 9
Hot bite (1=low-10=high): 9
Modulation (1=low-10=high): 7
Noise (1=extremely loud-10=quiet): 3 street, 8 track
Pad Lifespan (1=short-10=long): (estimate 7/actual ???)
Does the brake dust with this combination damage the wheels/paint if not cleaned immediately? No, mostly
Brake ducts: No

i know its old but those pads are toasted, why would they look like that?

[TrackBRZ]

Brake Pad Manufacturer (F/R): Hawk DTC60/ EBC Yellow Stuff
Caliper (F/R): Stock
Rotor Size (F/R - IE OEM or specify): OEM
Compound (F/R): Hawk DTC60/ EBC Yellow Stuff
Tires: Toyo RR & Nitro NT01

Feedback:
I was cooking the front brakes (smoking pads, scored rotors) until I removed the brake dust shields - after that the brakes were fine. Mine is a daily driven car with 8x2-day competitive time trial track events per year - I would estimate about 500-600 track laps per season, all run at 10/10th's! I ran this combo all spring/summer/fall and they were fine for combined daily and track use. The pads squealed a little bit but honestly nothing too bad. 3 sets of front pads, 2 sets of front rotors, 1.5 sets of rear pads and the rear rotors seem fine. I would likely have needed only 2 sets of front pads had I removed the dust shields earlier!

Scores:
Dusting (1=high-10=low): 7
Cold bite (1=low-10=high): 8
Hot bite (1=low-10=high): 9
Modulation (1=low-10=high): 8
Noise (1=extremely loud-10=quiet): 7
Pad Lifespan (1=short-10=long): (estimate/actual) About 3
Does the brake dust with this combination damage the wheels/paint if not cleaned immediately? No idea, I don't clean my track wheels!
Brake ducts: No

[cab33]

[B]Brake Pad Manufacturer (Front): Hawk
AP Racing BBK
[B]Compound (Front)" Hawk DTC60s
[B]NT01s and RE71s

[B]Feedback: Great pads, bad everything else.

Scores:
Dusting (1=high-10=low): 1
Cold bite (1=low-10=high): 10
Hot bite (1=low-10=high): 10
Modulation (1=low-10=high): 7
Noise (1=extremely loud-10=quiet): 4
Pad Lifespan (1=short-10=long): 7
Does the brake dust with this combination damage the wheels/paint if not cleaned immediately? Extreme brake dust, the white car now has permanent red /rusted brake dust stains covering everything except the hood and top of the car.
Brake ducts: N

[nico_rsx]

Does someone know if Carbotech has a dealer/distributor in Canada?

[nico_rsx]

I installed Carbotech XP8 front/rear, and I can't get rid of the freight train squeal...
I try bedding them on the street, but it didn't seem possible with the OEM tires to put enough pressure without locking the wheels.
I then did a track day. It was possible to bed the brake properly on track, and after that, the squealing was a lot less (seemed random, about 1 out of 4 brake press and weaker). But after 4 days of normal DD, the heavy squeal is back on each brake press whether light or hard press.

What do you think would help? I was thinking of bevelling the edges of the pads. Could that help? I could also try to put more brake grease (I used Permatex silicone-ceramic extreme, but didn't put a lot because I was afraid it would drip on the rotor with the track heat).
I could also remove the OEM backing plate/shim that I kept, but I was under the impression backing plates should help reduce noise, not create more.
Any other solution?

Those brake pads are awesome on the track, but unbearable on the street...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by nico_rsx

I installed Carbotech XP8 front/rear, and I can't get rid of the freight train squeal...
I try bedding them on the street, but it didn't seem possible with the OEM tires to put enough pressure without locking the wheels.
I then did a track day. It was possible to bed the brake properly on track, and after that, the squealing was a lot less (seemed random, about 1 out of 4 brake press and weaker). But after 4 days of normal DD, the heavy squeal is back on each brake press whether light or hard press.

What do you think would help? I was thinking of bevelling the edges of the pads. Could that help? I could also try to put more brake grease (I used Permatex silicone-ceramic extreme, but didn't put a lot because I was afraid it would drip on the rotor with the track heat).
I could also remove the OEM backing plate/shim that I kept, but I was under the impression backing plates should help reduce noise, not create more.
Any other solution?

Those brake pads are awesome on the track, but unbearable on the street...

Get them hotter.

Have a local experienced driver do it for you.

[Tor]

Originally Posted by nico_rsx

I installed Carbotech XP8 front/rear, and I can't get rid of the freight train squeal...
I try bedding them on the street, but it didn't seem possible with the OEM tires to put enough pressure without locking the wheels.
I then did a track day. It was possible to bed the brake properly on track, and after that, the squealing was a lot less (seemed random, about 1 out of 4 brake press and weaker). But after 4 days of normal DD, the heavy squeal is back on each brake press whether light or hard press.

I have XP10, but seems they behave the same. When your drive them on the street and the pads are cold they brake by abrasive fricton and it removes the transfer layer. Nothing you can do about it.

[nico_rsx]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Get them hotter.

Have a local experienced driver do it for you.

They were really hot. I did track days before, and yes someone with more experience would be faster, but I was not slow, especially in the last 2 sessions. The brake grease rated 3000F became black and dry (no way it got to 3000F though, so that rating may be BS).
I ran RE71. For comparaison, last year the OEM pads were starting to fade after 3 laps.


After the track sessions the brake were almost always quiet, but the noise came back after a couple of day DD.


I think I'll try making a little chamfer in the pads and put more grease, and if that doesn't work try removing the OEM shims.

[Lynxis]

[B]Brake Pad Manufacturer (Front): Winmax
RR Racing SP BBK front, OEM rear
[B]Compound (Front/Rear)" W5
[B]225 RS3

[B]Feedback: Amazing track pads but behaviour is completely different between hot and cold.

Scores:
Dusting (1=high-10=low): 2
Cold bite (1=low-10=high): 8
Hot bite (1=low-10=high): 9
Modulation (1=low-10=high): 8 hot, 5 cold
Noise (1=extremely loud-10=quiet): 4 hot (high pitched squeal when hot) 2 cold (sound like a bus when cold)
Pad Lifespan (1=short-10=long): 3 cold, 6 hot, (2 track events caused less wear than a month of mild street driving, wear very fast when cold)
Does the brake dust with this combination damage the wheels/paint if not cleaned immediately? Can be cleaned but takes serious effort with a pressure washer, brush and chemicals even if just cleaning once it turns cold
Brake ducts: N

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by nico_rsx

They were really hot. I did track days before, and yes someone with more experience would be faster, but I was not slow, especially in the last 2 sessions. The brake grease rated 3000F became black and dry (no way it got to 3000F though, so that rating may be BS).
I ran RE71. For comparaison, last year the OEM pads were starting to fade after 3 laps.


After the track sessions the brake were almost always quiet, but the noise came back after a couple of day DD.


I think I'll try making a little chamfer in the pads and put more grease, and if that doesn't work try removing the OEM shims.

My Ferodos did that. Basically, every time swapping them on (these are daily/ax pads for me), no amount of grease would be sufficient. They'd be quiet for bedding in, then pretty much what you describe..a few days later, noise.

Once it gets to be both a)unbearable and b)a time when I can get to doing something about it, regreasing the back of the pads shut it back up.

Snug up the fasteners, too. That vibration frequency is pretty good at backing off bolts.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by nico_rsx

They were really hot. I did track days before, and yes someone with more experience would be faster, but I was not slow, especially in the last 2 sessions. The brake grease rated 3000F became black and dry (no way it got to 3000F though, so that rating may be BS).
I ran RE71. For comparaison, last year the OEM pads were starting to fade after 3 laps.


After the track sessions the brake were almost always quiet, but the noise came back after a couple of day DD.


I think I'll try making a little chamfer in the pads and put more grease, and if that doesn't work try removing the OEM shims.

3000F would definitely be BS.

Do you have any pics of your pads and rotors?

[nico_rsx]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

3000F would definitely be BS.

Do you have any pics of your pads and rotors?

I'm guessing you mean the side of the pad that touch the rotor. If I have time this week-end I'll try removing and regreasing them. I'll take pictures once removed.
I just read somewhere not to put grease between the pad and the shim, only between the shim and the caliper (I put it on both when I installed them), so I'll try that, and maybe do a little chamfer.

For reference, the 3000F:
https://www.permatex.com/products/lu...rts-lubricant/
But the grease was dry way before that...

[TurtReynolds]

Most of the squeal is going to come from light pressure braking and low speed braking. Unsurprisingly, this makes up most daily commutes.

Porsche has a great video about what causes squeal and how they've tried to inhibit it. It's very educational.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUNHb9O52WQ[/ame]

...unfortunately we don't drive Porsches. Even bedding the brakes properly into silence won't be a permanent fix for most people. It will require repeated efforts to re-apply that transfer layer that helps keep the friction high enough to "fill in the gaps" as it were between the pad and rotor surface. Stopping harder to keep the heat up in the rotors and pads to maintain this layer will make it last longer, though.

There are only two "real" options in my mind. Swap pads between street and track (Carbotech pads allow this on the same rotor) or just get used to the noise. I got used to the noise, but I wouldn't exactly call my Winmax W5 severe by any means.