COVID Developments and News

[Lantanafrs2]

Someone who has ideas or beliefs different than mine doesn't necessarily need to "get out more". I've abandoned the notion that I'm right and you're wrong. When crossing a 2 way street it makes sense to look in both directions.

[wbradley]

I wonder what one thing would make the most anti-vaxxers care more about everyone's safety and protection and convince the biggest number of them to get jabbed? Sadly, it would probably need to be a "horse is already out of the barn" situation. One or two more Latin prefixes (variants) and it could be who knows what. Gambling with ignorance or educated guidance, which side to pick?

[dragoontwo]

Originally Posted by wbradley

I wonder what one thing would make the most anti-vaxxers care more about everyone's safety and protection and convince the biggest number of them to get jabbed? Sadly, it would probably need to be a "horse is already out of the barn" situation. One or two more Latin prefixes (variants) and it could be who knows what. Gambling with ignorance or educated guidance, which side to pick?

It doesn't matter what side of the argument you side with. Covid was always here to stay. Like the flu, it will be with us always. It may even replace the flu as the seasonal malady. Regardless of vaccination, there are going to be mutations and spread.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by dragoontwo

It doesn't matter what side of the argument you side with. Covid was always here to stay. Like the flu, it will be with us always. It may even replace the flu as the seasonal malady. Regardless of vaccination, there are going to be mutations and spread.

What do you base this statement on? Did the Spanish flu mutate into variants? AFAIK other flu strains haven't been as severe as Spanish was. Excluding Swine flu.

So, it could be Flu/Corona virus shots seasonally and people unexpectedly dieing of Covid for years to come if not vaccinated.

I had a flu shot maybe one year where it was recommended but at my age maybe it should start becoming every year. Might as well add another one to the mix.

I wonder how many vaccinations a person can tolerate in a year without a clinical trend toward deteriorating health as a result.

[dragoontwo]

It's a personal opinion and nothing more. It's worth what you paid for it. I would enjoy being wrong, and for it to go away.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by wbradley

I wonder how many vaccinations a person can tolerate in a year without a clinical trend toward deteriorating health as a result.

lol is this a serious question? Considering the amount of vaccines newborns get in their first year, you got nothing to worry about.

This is exactly the kind of shit that the anti-vax crowd latches onto.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

lol is this a serious question? Considering the amount of vaccines newborns get in their first year, you got nothing to worry about.

This is exactly the kind of shit that the anti-vax crowd latches onto.

It's a valid question. If for example there is a point where people taking multiple vaccinations have some interactions of some sort. I'm thinking more theoretically, like if we needed 6 or 8 different types of vaccinations. I'm not worried discussing that here. And the reality is we likely would never reach that point, at least in my lifetime.

If there was biological warfare, martial law would force people to do what's needed. Thankfully there isn't AFAIK, but sometimes I wonder how far things can go before authority needs to put their foot down.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

Someone who has ideas or beliefs different than mine doesn't necessarily need to "get out more". I've abandoned the notion that I'm right and you're wrong. When crossing a 2 way street it makes sense to look in both directions.

Flat earthers are right?!
The line between beliefs which might be given equal space (should personal freedoms end where they infringe on the freedoms of others?) and facts (vaccines are safe and effective) exists for a reason... But that line is ignored and treated as if they were equally up for debate.
Right now the belief which seems to be paramount is "I'll be fine"... It's impacting others on a grand scale. And those with that belief had better be right because there may only be a body bag for them if they're wrong and they do need a hospital bed, whether covid or otherwise.

[Atmo]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Most of the hospitals in my area are mandating vaccines now, and it seems that California is going to follow other states in mandating vaccines for healthcare workers, so my hospital will be moving to vaccinate or terminate employees. Frankly, it is about time. Hopefully, other industries will follow.

Obviously, the nation has a need for healthcare workers, so I don’t know what they would do if everyone who isn’t vaccinated decides to quit. They might rescind the mandate or move to a national mandate. Only two options.

Coincidentally, the lead in story to local tv weather last night featured the organizer of a coalition of nurses working in a large local hospital facing a vaxx mandate next week. Today they're holding a protest against being forcibly vaxxed. The leader, an OR RN, offered about 4-5 main reasons why vaxx choice should be left to individuals.

Then they interviewed the CEO of the hospital and he's adamant, saying that employees must comply or they'll be reassigned to a desk job or go do something else. Sounds like the situation could quickly spiral out of control creating unintended consequences. About 200 front line professionals are expected to attend the protest. I was surprised that the local network carried the story at all.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by wbradley

It's a valid question. If for example there is a point where people taking multiple vaccinations have some interactions of some sort. I'm thinking more theoretically, like if we needed 6 or 8 different types of vaccinations. I'm not worried discussing that here. And the reality is we likely would never reach that point, at least in my lifetime.

If there was biological warfare, martial law would force people to do what's needed. Thankfully there isn't AFAIK, but sometimes I wonder how far things can go before authority needs to put their foot down.

For nursing school, I just upped my TDAP, hep B, did my seasonal flu shot this year, got a two dose PPD test for TB, and I got my COVID shot.

The body is literally fighting off billions if not trillions or more attacks a day by bacteria and viruses. Every pimple on your body is a collection of white blood cells from attacks. Your GI and respiratory tract are coated with defensive systems both passive and active. Look at what the arrow is pointing to in the picture below. Those are called Peyer’s patches, that are like giant lymph nodes that line the GI track and make up almost the bulk of the cross sectional area, which is impressive considering there is connective tissues, epithelial tissue, smooth muscle, nerves, vesicles, etc.

Getting a fever is the most common reaction to a vaccine or multiple vaccines, and it just means enough attackers multiplied or was present in the product to create a more significant immune response. Allergic reaction to byproducts, seizures in infants from a fever, Guillain-Barre from live viruses, hydrocephalus or other rare side effects exists, but the likelihood doesn’t significantly raise with the more vaccines. Like Guillian-Barre kills less than 10% of the 1 in 100,000 that get it…worldwide. In the US and other modern nations, the rate is much less. Less than a thousand people die a year of guillian-barre, but tens of millions of vaccines are administered every year. Even if that number jumped up to 10,000, COVID has taken out over 600,000 people. The two issues are not even in the same ballpark.

People also need to realize that our vaccines will be far more robust and comprehensive than the immunity developed from exposure. This will be especially true when we get boosters for emerging variants, so a single shot could provide immunity to multiple strains like how the seasonal flu shot works. Herd immunity doesn’t entirely protect people from the seasonal flu or new variants, and because we have so many hosts, we have many prolific variants. Vaccines are our best way out of this pandemic that can get us to an endemic state.

Yesterday we had 130k new cases and 750 deaths. This is really unacceptable considering the effectiveness of the vaccine at preventing 99% of deaths, and the fact that pretty much all deaths are happening in the unvaccinated camp. At this point, I’m for vaccine mandates. If the government isn’t going to hold people down and deliver shots then they need to ban unvaccinated people from all social spaces. Make it as hard as possible not to get vaccinated.

[Atmo]

Originally Posted by wbradley

It's a valid question. If for example there is a point where people taking multiple vaccinations have some interactions of some sort. I'm thinking more theoretically, like if we needed 6 or 8 different types of vaccinations. I'm not worried discussing that here. And the reality is we likely would never reach that point, at least in my lifetime.

If there was biological warfare, martial law would force people to do what's needed. Thankfully there isn't AFAIK, but sometimes I wonder how far things can go before authority needs to put their foot down.

Agree, it's a valid point brought up in many places but those saying it are portrayed as wingnuts including the inventor of mRNA who suggests that multiple jabs may have cumulative detrimental effects.

I also think that we've had a pretty close simulation of martial law worldwide over the past 18 months from friends and relatives I talk with in Italy, England, Australia and Japan. The US isn't quite as harsh, leaving the emergency decrees up to the states, but we've seen how chaotic life has become from that and this year even more so with Federal takeover of so much of our lives.

It's easy to complain though with all the crisis porn around. The fact is, Operation Warp Speed is historic.

[wbradley]

Irace, I am familiar with much of what you posted. Peyer's patches, there's one I haven't heard since school. And yes phagocytosis is happening all the time all over your body as white blood cells engulf foreign invaders. I was simply wondering out loud if there is a point where certain immunizations need to be spaced apart for example based on observed contraindications. Not a negative to anyone getting jabbed at this time.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by wbradley

Irace, I am familiar with much of what you posted. Peyer's patches, there's one I haven't heard since school. And yes phagocytosis is happening all the time all over your body as white blood cells engulf foreign invaders. I was simply wondering out loud if there is a point where certain immunizations need to be spaced apart for example based on observed contraindications. Not a negative to anyone getting jabbed at this time.

As others have noted, the schedule for childhood vaccines demonstrates that a robust delivery of multiple vaccines in a short time is no cause for concern.





The seasonal flu shot contains 3-4 different flu strains in one shot, and I have read articles with companies working on shots that contain dozens to hundreds of strains taken and inoculated from many samples all over the world:

The seasonal flu vaccine protects against the influenza viruses that research indicates will be most common during the upcoming season. Most flu vaccines in the United States protect against four different flu viruses (“quadrivalent”); an influenza A (H1N1) virus, an influenza A (H3N2) virus, and two influenza B viruses. There are also some flu vaccines that protect against three different flu viruses (“trivalent”); an influenza A (H1N1) virus, an influenza A (H3N2) virus, and one influenza B virus. Two of the trivalent vaccines are designed specifically for people 65 and older to create a stronger immune response.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ngle-shot.html
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/keyfacts.htm


The theoretical limit probably has far, far more to do with volume than with variety. Like, in every shot there is a certain volume of product, which is needed to create an immune response that is long lasting and robust enough to create immunity. Anything smaller, and immunity will be lost or not even created. A single vaccine dose is going to have hundreds of trillions (??? I don't know the number, but a huge number) of viral particles. If those viral particles were hundreds of viruses and not just one virus, the side effects would be potentially higher, but also far less strong than if the does was the same volume with one virus; a does divided one hundred times is much smaller of a dose. Thus, if someone was given a gram versus a milligram, for example, of a vaccine (which would be a huge dose), even though the virus was inoculated and couldn't reproduce, the body would most likely find the volume of viral products very concerning and mount a large and severe immune response that could cause severe side effects or death. This is why volume is probably worse than the number of strains, for discussing a theoretical limit. With that said, it could be possible to deliver quite a large dose by volume and variety in a relatively short timeframe like months or within a year, and it would likely be a walk in the park for the immune system to manage, so much so, that discussing the theoretical limit might be so outside of the realm of possibility that it isn't worth much discussion.

If you really want to postulate what the side effects could look like for receiving a huge volume of a single or multiple vaccines in a single session then you could examine the immune response of cancer patients who have been given a therapy that activates their immune system to fight off their cancer. By volume, the amount of cancer in their bodies is quite large like sometimes pounds worth, and when the immune system is activated, it is analogous to basically injecting pounds of viral particles into their body. Why? Because with this therapy, the cancer sells went from invisible to the immune system to visible. This therapy causes severe reactions, and it can cause death, but death isn't guaranteed, and this potentially reflects pounds of foreign products in the body.

https://www.statnews.com/2016/08/23/...-side-effects/


Another theoretical comparison could be drawn between the immune response seen in patients that receive blood products that don't match their blood type or in patients who receive a transplant from an unmatched donor or matched donor without immunosuppressants. By volume, these "doses" are quite large and results in severe side effects and death, so we could expect a similar effect to an equally large dose of vaccines, which is unlikely, but could reflect a theoretical limit by volume.


Have you ever had a drop of seawater go in your nose or mouth? Well:

In a drop (one millilitre) of seawater, one can find 10 million viruses, one million bacteria and about 1,000 small protozoans and algae (called “protists”).

http://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Microbial_research


Now, the viruses and bacteria in sea water aren't necessarily pathogens that could cause illness. Some are inert and some we have immunity to already and some are in such small volumes that they could never thwart our basic immunity, but it suggests we deal with a huge volume of pathogens all the time that are attacking our body. Vaccines represent a small sliver of that. They are inert/inoculated, and thus, they can't proliferate, or in the case of the mRNA vaccines, their ability to proliferate is severely limited to a finite amount because they are limited to making a fraction of a virus, and thus, they can't replenish their numbers, and because they are under attack, they basically have a short half-life.

Cliff notes: Volume of a vaccine matters more than the number of variants, viruses or whatever given in a single dose, and the volume of vaccination products would have to be quite large to be problematic for the average person, so large that it likely isn't in the realm of possibility.

[wbradley]

Wow that was like a Dr David Suzuki documentary. I start feeling itchy when he shows us what lives on our skin, hair, etc.