Toyota Dynamic Force Engine

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by weederr33

Then I will keep telling you that!!!! Weight loss, no matter what is always better. Stop with your fact checking.

I wish there was an aftermarket aluminum frame kit for 86. I would swap everything on to the aluminum frame while replacing with carbon fiber body panels and drive shaft. I wonder how much weight we could save.

Just like the frame replacement of Dodge Viper in Alex Rebuilds

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by mrg666

I wish there was an aftermarket aluminum frame kit for 86. I would swap everything on to the aluminum frame while replacing with carbon fiber body panels and drive shaft. I wonder how much weight we could save.

Just like the frame replacement of Dodge Viper in Alex Rebuilds

You now almost no modern car uses a frame anymore right?

The front subframe is aluminum-no it isn’t I was wrong-
The rear is steel, but I doubt you can make it much lighter than it is out of aluminum. Hood is aluminum. No gains there Trunk lid and doors are steel, might save a couple pounds there, but not 50lbs. Maybe 10-15. Fenders and roof are steel, but very thin, you can probably lose a couple pounds there too.

Point is, this car is very light as is. Throwing aluminum at it might not change much. Keep in mind also that this car is over a foot longer than the ND Miata, and that’s almost all in the wheelbase. There is nothing out there that is RWD and this size that is lighter than this car.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Uhhhhhh. You now almost no modern car uses a frame anymore right?

The front subframe is aluminum
The rear is steel, but I doubt you can make it much lighter than it is out of aluminum.

Hood and roof are aluminum. No gains there

Trunk lid and doors are steel, might save a couple pounds there, but not 50lbs. Maybe 10-15.


Point is, this car is very light as is. Throwing aluminum at it won’t change much. Keep in mind also that this car is over a foot longer than the ND Miata, and that’s almost all in the wheelbase. There is nothing out there that is RWD and this size that is lighter than this car.

I know, that is why I said "frame kit" not just frame. But I did not know front subframe was aluminum already. Thanks! Then, there are only fenders, doors, trunk, rear subframe, and drive shaft that can be replaced. Are you sure roof panel is aluminum? Mine started showing two tiny rust spots at the edge.

Edit: Did the magnet test; roof is definitely steel.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by mrg666

I know, that is why I said "frame kit" not just frame. But I did not know front subframe was aluminum already. Thanks! Then, there are only fenders, doors, trunk, rear subframe, and drive shaft that can be replaced. Are you sure roof panel is aluminum? Mine started showing two tiny rust spots at the edge.

Haha I just pulled out a magnet too! Correction, roof is steel
And sorry, I’m confusing it with my other car, front subframe is steel too. My bad.

I kind of like the idea of an aluminum subframe and suspension arms kit for the front and rear, but it would probably be very expensive.

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Haha I just pulled out a magnet too! Correction, roof is steel
And sorry, I’m confusing it with my other car, front subframe is steel too. My bad.

I kind of like the idea of an aluminum subframe and suspension arms kit for the front and rear, but it would probably be very expensive.

Aluminum is all fun and games until you twist it like a pretzel. There's a reason why most manufacturers are going to high strength steel, the thickness to strength ratio for aluminum is drastically lower than steel. At time it's much lighter to just go with steel parts.

Low production/bespoke aluminum chassis' like Corvette's and Ferrari's need not apply.

[why?]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

Aluminum is all fun and games until you twist it like a pretzel. There's a reason why most manufacturers are going to high strength steel, the thickness to strength ratio for aluminum is drastically lower than steel. At time it's much lighter to just go with steel parts.

Low production/bespoke aluminum chassis' like Corvette's and Ferrari's need not apply.

Some of these compounds are including all sorts of exotic metals too. When you can mix steel with tungsten and other materials to make it both stronger and lighter it is hard to beat.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

Aluminum is all fun and games until you twist it like a pretzel. There's a reason why most manufacturers are going to high strength steel, the thickness to strength ratio for aluminum is drastically lower than steel. At time it's much lighter to just go with steel parts.

Low production/bespoke aluminum chassis' like Corvette's and Ferrari's need not apply.

Al: 6061 T6:
Yield strength: 276MPa
Density: 2700kg/m^3
~.102 MPa/kg

Steel: 980X high strength steel:
Yield strength: 550MPa
Density: 8000kg/m^3
~.069 MPa/kg

For a given weight aluminum is stronger than high strength steel. And 6061 isn’t even an exotic aluminum alloy. 7050 is twice as strong. For the same volume (thickness) 980X HS Steel is about twice as strong as 6061, but it’s over 3 times heavier. The only reason they pick steel over Al is cost.

Keep in mind that 6061 is a fairly weak Aluminum Alloy and 980X is the strongest SAE HSS used in automotive applications.

[Ernest72]

I think the complaining about the torque comes from the fact that, despite everyone thinking they are a race car driver, many just drive normally most of the time. So if you spend a lot of time under 4K then the car is fairly normal. Plus you will be beat off the line by any car with more torque.

I switch back and forth between the BRZ and The WRX, and you really notice how much slower it is if you drive the same way. On the other hand if I am above 5k on my WRX we are heading for 100mph. The BRZ steering, lightweight and ability to wind it out really make it fun. I personally feel the BRZ only needs a little more torque, if I had the power from the WRX, it would minimize the amount of time I am at high rpms. There are days that I drive my WRX and I never go higher than 4K. And on twisty roads it’s tough to get higher rpm because there is no room for that speed.

We need a small electric supercharger to increase low end torque and skip high end. This would be best for DD and spirited mountain twisty runs. We will not get it because racing always wants and needs high end.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

I think the complaining about the torque comes from the fact that, despite everyone thinking they are a race car driver, many just drive normally most of the time. So if you spend a lot of time under 4K then the car is fairly normal. Plus you will be beat off the line by any car with more torque.

I switch back and forth between the BRZ and The WRX, and you really notice how much slower it is if you drive the same way. On the other hand if I am above 5k on my WRX we are heading for 100mph. The BRZ steering, lightweight and ability to wind it out really make it fun. I personally feel the BRZ only needs a little more torque, if I had the power from the WRX, it would minimize the amount of time I am at high rpms. There are days that I drive my WRX and I never go higher than 4K. And on twisty roads it’s tough to get higher rpm because there is no room for that speed.

We need a small electric supercharger to increase low end torque and skip high end. This would be best for DD and spirited mountain twisty runs. We will not get it because racing always wants and needs high end.

I’d rather put that electric motor in the bell housing, like a RWD CRZ. Add a small battery pack in the trunk to balance it out and done.

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Al: 6061 T6:
Yield strength: 276MPa
Density: 2700kg/m^3
~.102 MPa/kg

Steel: 980X high strength steel:
Yield strength: 550MPa
Density: 8000kg/m^3
~.069 MPa/kg

For a given weight aluminum is stronger than high strength steel. And 6061 isn’t even an exotic aluminum alloy. 7050 is twice as strong. For the same volume (thickness) 980X HS Steel is about twice as strong as 6061, but it’s over 3 times heavier. The only reason they pick steel over Al is cost.

Keep in mind that 6061 is a fairly weak Aluminum Alloy and 980X is the strongest SAE HSS used in automotive applications.

That's a fairly blanket statement, especially when you ignore Tensile strength. Aluminum has its place depending on part geometry but for most high volume, low cost options steel is much better suited. I do agree that cost is most definitely a factor but in the real world aluminum parts are usually not 3 times lighter, maybe 25-50% lighter for most automotive chassis applications.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

That's a fairly blanket statement, especially when you ignore Tensile strength. Aluminum has its place depending on part geometry but for most high volume, low cost options steel is much better suited. I do agree that cost is most definitely a factor but in the real world aluminum parts are usually not 3 times lighter, maybe 25-50% lighter for most automotive chassis applications.

Correct, if you made aluminum parts 3 times lighter than steel they would be weaker than steel.

My math shows they’re about 33% lighter than equivalent steel, which is about what you see in cars like older BMWs, where both steel and aluminum control arms are available as OEM parts.

Steel arm: ~1.5 lb
Al arm: ~1 lb

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Correct, if you made aluminum parts 3 times lighter than steel they would be weaker than steel.

My math shows they’re about 33% lighter than equivalent steel, which is about what you see in cars like older BMWs, where both steel and aluminum control arms are available as OEM parts.

Steel arm: ~1.5 lb
Al arm: ~1 lb

Yup, and that gap/savings shrinks even smaller when you get to chassis panels and stamping's with awkward cross sections and geometry's.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

Yup, and that gap/savings shrinks even smaller when you get to chassis panels and stamping's with awkward cross sections and geometry's.

Yea aluminum doesn’t stamp that well. Much better to make structural parts with extrusions and castings.

I’m not suggesting an aluminum unibody. Those are expensive, like high end Audi’s and Jags use. But aluminum front subframe and aluminum control arms can help. You probably won’t do better than 20 pounds, but hey, it’s 20 pounds. The control arms are nice because you’re shedding off some sprung weight.

[Ernest72]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

I’d rather put that electric motor in the bell housing, like a RWD CRZ. Add a small battery pack in the trunk to balance it out and done.

I’ll take that.