ST Battery proposal for comment

[Autoxer62]

I haven't noticed any discussion on this, I thought some of us might be interested. From the July Fastrack:

#32184 Lithium Ion Batteries
The STAC is requesting member feedback on the following change to 14.9.A:

"The make, model number, and size of the battery may be changed but not its voltage. The OE battery may be replaced. The replacement battery must weigh at least 10lbs not including mounting hardware. Relocation of the battery or batteries is permitted but not into the passenger compartment. If the battery is relocated and the original battery tray can be removed by simply unbolting it, the tray may be removed or relocated with the battery. Holes may be drilled for mounting or passage of cables. Longer cables may be substituted to permit relocation. The number of battery or batteries may not be changed from standard. The area behind the rearmost seat is not considered to be within the passenger compartment. The area under the rearmost seat is considered to be within the passenger compartment. Battery allowances do not apply to electric and hybrid-electric vehicles."

This proposal may change or it may not be recommended; the STAC asking for your input. Please write letters to express your support or lack of support, including your your rationale, as well as your thoughts on the specific weight chosen.

I'm personally not sure how much I care - I've more or less decided an Odyssey 680 is as far as I'm going to go for a lighter battery, and if someone wants to spend the money to save 10 more pounds I'll live with that. OTOH, from the larger perspective of cost containment it seems like a good idea.

Other thoughts? Either way, if this is something you really care about, they're asking for comments.

[Kelse92]

Go take a look at the build thread and you’ll see a bunch of STX builds that all have antigravity ATX-30’s. It’s a 5lb battery so I’d be OK with that minimum, but at 10lbs a lot of us are going to buy new ones and try to resell or find other cars in our garages that can use that piece.

I think this proposal also really alienates STS, most of those cars are an age where they’ve relocated and have tiny tiny batteries, but they may have gone a bit overboard on that. So 5lbs at least splits the bigger difference for them too.

[14stu]

There's no good reason to allow battery changes and then implement a minimum weight. The 2-3lb batteries are no more expensive than the 10lb batteries and battery technology is one of the areas that is undergoing rapid changes.

[Breezio]

Yeah. I'm highly against the wording of that proposal.
Sounds like it was written up by someone who has an issue with lithium batteries.

Maybe they sell 'lightweight' AGM batteries or something.

Ignoring the weight restriction, the voltage restriction would disallow ALL lithium batteries as they operate at a slightly different nominal voltage.

I run an ATX-20. It's about 4 lbs. It didn't cost me anymore then a quality lightweight AGM batter would have.

Just a terrible rule adjustment anyway you slice it as far as I can see.

[Autoxer62]

The basis of my cost comment is that it looks to me like the 15 pound 680 is a lot cheaper than an ATX-20 or 30. I haven't priced a ten pound AGM so I'm guessing they're more than a 680 at ~$150.

In any case, send a letter if you disagree, don't just post here. I think making the point that there are a bunch of folks that immediately have to buy a new battery is certainly worth bringing up.

[Breezio]

But complaining to random people on the internet that can't do anything is so much more fun and effective...

My ATX-20 was $160

[strat61caster]

imho intent was less about cost or performance advantage, but rather safety as tiny li-ion have shown issues in the past on street cars. There’s a practicality element too as li-ion can be more sensitive to discharge and brick more easily but given all the oddball things autoxers do that’s a minor quibble.

I’m neutral, I don’t think 10# limit gets to the heart of the issue, don’t care enough to write a letter, I’ll take it as it comes without complaint even though I put in a shorai a few weeks back.

[edj]

it's a safety issue. two of the tiny lithium batteries caught fire at the Solo Nationals last year.

but yeah, write a letter.

[Breadman]

Originally Posted by edj

it's a safety issue. two of the tiny lithium batteries caught fire at the Solo Nationals last year.

but yeah, write a letter.

well i guess it is good that i dont daily one anymore. But i do get it, normally people dont daily 5lb lithium atv batteries in their car. Which is kind of the point of the class

[MX-5RACER]

Until lithium technology is adapted to work in all cars and overcome the voltage issues (Very few of the lithium batteries have sufficient protection circuits) that happens in off-normal conditions, I think we need to look at potentially banning them in Solo. I definitely think a minimum 10lb weight will not solve or band-aid the problem.

Anyone who questions how safe lithium car batteries may or may not be, please go look at some of the horror stories in the RC world where tiny 7.2v packs have started fires etc. in storage, not even in use.

I would be in favor of not allowing lithium batteries, unless manufactured with one.

[Autoxer62]

Originally Posted by MX-5RACER

Until lithium technology is adapted to work in all cars and overcome the voltage issues (Very few of the lithium batteries have sufficient protection circuits) that happens in off-normal conditions, I think we need to look at potentially banning them in Solo. I definitely think a minimum 10lb weight will not solve or band-aid the problem.

Anyone who questions how safe lithium car batteries may or may not be, please go look at some of the horror stories in the RC world where tiny 7.2v packs have started fires etc. in storage, not even in use.

I would be in favor of not allowing lithium batteries, unless manufactured with one.

I think I have a letter worth writing, something like:

"I'm opposed to the proposed rule #32184 Lithium Ion Batteries as written. If the purpose is cost constraint it does nothing as lighter batteries are available at the same price point as 10 pound batteries.

If, however, the purpose of the rule is to ban the use of Lithium batteries as replacement for Lead Acid on the basis of safety (especially fire risk) then the rule should be written to either ban Lithium based batteries or only allow Lead Acid batteries, to include AGM unless OEM supplied."

If you agree, feel free to copy/edit as you wish and submit.

[14stu]

Originally Posted by Breadman

well i guess it is good that i dont daily one anymore. But i do get it, normally people dont daily 5lb lithium atv batteries in their car. Which is kind of the point of the class

I daily drove my 2014 STX BRZ with a 3lb Shorai LiPO battery for years.

[cjd]

I'd be curious as to the intent here. As-is it's just weird. Why allow weight reduction, but limit it at 10lbs; If the weight limit is an attempt at banning lithium based batteries, it should be direct. Else there will be a spec battery exactly 10lbs (and probably Li based) and twice the price it should be, just because it's the best you can do. It's a wonky proposal.

Personally, I think the rule should be OE chemistry, and OE size/weight or equivalent replacement +/- 10% or something (allowances for sizes perhaps no longer available for older cars, different makes, etc.) IF there is to be a rule.
If the problem is fire risk, this should apply beyond just ST classes.

Originally Posted by MX-5RACER

Until lithium technology is adapted to work in all cars and overcome the voltage issues (Very few of the lithium batteries have sufficient protection circuits) that happens in off-normal conditions, I think we need to look at potentially banning them in Solo. I definitely think a minimum 10lb weight will not solve or band-aid the problem.

Anyone who questions how safe lithium car batteries may or may not be, please go look at some of the horror stories in the RC world where tiny 7.2v packs have started fires etc. in storage, not even in use.

I would be in favor of not allowing lithium batteries, unless manufactured with one.

The Lithium batteries used in RC are a completely different chemistry and are not comparable to the batteries typically put into passenger vehicles. That's not to say the root problem isn't shared - if you overvolt or short them out, they don't like it. So the root problem of voltage disparity IS a risk and very much dependent on the car. The twins seem to do just fine and have a well regulated charging system; not all cars do.

[Autoxer62]

Originally Posted by Breezio

But complaining to random people on the internet that can't do anything is so much more fun and effective...

My ATX-20 was $160

Can you supply a link/vendor? Cheapest I can find one is at Summit for $288. It could be things have changed since your purchase.

Having said that, I'd still rather see a rule that just bans non-Lead batteries rather than trying to do it via an arbitrary weight.