New Member - BRZ or RX-8 ?

[Bonburner]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

I've owned two RX8's, as well as a few earlier rotary powered vehicles (RX4, and a Suzuki RE5 rotary motorcycle). I'm a long time, hard core Wankel fan. I had a 2006 RX8 for about 10 years before my current BRZ, and sold it with many mixed feelings.

Lots of people have strong opinions on Wankels and RX8's. Most of them have never driven one. There are a lot of similarities between the RX8 and BRZ - both are simple, lightweight driver's cars, both have reasonable horsepower but low on torque, and neither are "numbers" cars. If someone cares about 'numbers', 0-60, quarter mile, lap times around the Nurburgring, etc. and bragging about those 'numbers' at their local gym or bar (back in pre-pandemic days when we could go to bars without risking illness or death), then neither the RX8 nor BRZ are for them.

But if someone cares more about how a car actually feels to drive, how your butt feels in the seat tooling along down a twisty road, and care more about if a car is simply fun to drive and forget the numbers, then both share a kindred spirit.

The RX8 feels like an exotic, and truthfully, in some ways is one. It's probably the cheapest exotic car you can buy, both the good and the bad. It truly feels special in ways that people who have never driven one just can't appreciate. Again it's not the 'numbers', it's the way the car just feels, the way the engine sounds like a turbine jet spooling up for take off, the way it revs impossibly smoothly to 9,000 rpm, the way the car feels directly hard-wired into your central nervous system so that your body becomes one with the road. The RX8 is probably the most fun for the dollar you can get. You won't win any drag races against Mustangs and the like, but you won't care, and that's not what the car is about.

But..... there's always a 'but', and with Wankel engines, there are several 'but's'. As wonderful and magical as the Wankel engine is, and the engineering marvel it is with only 3 basic moving parts, it's not a typical reliable Japanese car. If you plan to use the car for daily driving, the RX8, or any Wankel, would not be a good choice. The RX8 needs much higher maintenance than any reciprocating engine. It can be reasonably, fairly reliable with diligent, regular maintenance. But if you try and drive it like any other Japanese car you will probably soon come into problems and repairs.

The rotary consumes oil. It's designed to. If it didn't use oil, the apex seals would be gone in a flash. How much depends on how hard you drive it, but think around a quart every 500 miles. This means you must check the oil at every gas fill up, and top it off when it's low. Running out of oil in a rotary means the same thing as running out of oil in any other internal combustion engine: motor death.

The rotary gets a mostly undeserved bad reputation for early engine deaths. Many RX8's did suffer early engine failures. You find a lot of them for sale with motors replaced after only 30-40k miles. It's human nature to blame someone else instead of taking responsibility, but I suspect many of those early engine failures were because owners didn't check and top off the oil. If you try and drive a RX8 3-4,000 miles between oil changes without checking the oil (like you can get away with on most other cars), you'll soon need a new engine.

Mazda also never had the kind of development money the 'big' Japanese automakers did, so the engineering on some parts leaves something to be desired. The original coil packs on the RX8 seem to die after around 30k miles, so plan on either replacing them regularly, or with better quality aftermarket parts. The RX8 has been subject to several recalls, leaking fuel tanks and other issues, so plan on chasing down annoying problems.

The rotary engine, as much visceral, spine-tingling fun as it truly is, also has driving quirks even if properly maintained. You need to let it warm up before driving hard. Failure to do so will wear out the all-critical apex and side seals. You need to be careful about hot restarts so as not to flood the engine. Thermal management is critical, as the rotary is thermally inefficient and puts out a LOT of heat. If you let it overheat you have a lump of metal instead of an engine. Many owners either replace the thermostat with a lower temp one or remove it completely. Even with proper care a rotary engine will rarely last as long as a reciprocating one. While there are RX8 owners on the forum with over 100k miles on their original engines, and some with over 200k miles, 80-100k miles seems like a much more realistic expectation for engine life. Apex and side seals just don't usually last as long as piston rings.

There are aftermarket fixes for some of the rotary's inherent weaknesses. There are kits to add an oil tank and direct injection for the engine so you can burn 2-cycle oil instead of the lubricating oil the engine consumes (it replaces the windshield washer reservoir). That was one of the design compromises/flaws of the Wankel - it consumes its own lubricating oil, which gets dirty and isn't the best thing to be spraying directly into the combustion chamber. Some hardcore rotary fans mix oil into the gas to insure a clean supply. This requires always carrying around a supply of 2 cycle oil, never forgetting to add it, and measuring it carefully to make sure you put in neither too little or too much into the gas. However you do it, you have to make sure the engine gets about a quart of oil every 500-ish miles, or it will die.

I absolutely loved my RX8. If I wasn't moving across the country at the time, and didn't want to haul it again (I trucked it cross-country once), I might still have it. But, I was getting older (I'm 60-something), and the constant neediness of the car was beginning to wear on me. I wanted something that was as close to the RX8 in feel as possible, but needing less maintenance and repair. That's when the BRZ came into my life.

If you plan on daily driving the car, or if you realistically, honestly don't think you can keep up with the absolutely essential regular maintenance of the RX8, then the BRZ is the car for you. But, if you're looking for purely a weekend toy, if you're mechanically adept and enjoy wrenching on a car regularly, and if you're willing to take the time to learn about the Wankel's unique needs, then it truly is a whole lot of fun. As much as I love my BRZ, I often miss my RX8.

If you decide to go for a RX8, I'd suggest some things -

Go for one with as few miles as possible. The newest one is now almost 10 years old so that won't be easy. 30k miles on the one you mentioned might be one of the lowest mile ones left.

Don't touch one without doing a rotary-specific compression test. As clean as a car might look, you can't tell how it's been treated or the condition of the apex and side seals without a compression test. A compression test on a Wankel is done differently than for a reciprocating engine, and you must use a compression tester specifically for a rotary engine. It's worth taking the car to a Mazda dealer to have this done. If the compression is low or borderline, plan accordingly (to either walk away, or budget for an engine rebuild, IF you can find a rotary mechanic near you).

Try to get a car from someone who's owned it for a long time, so you can get a feel for how it's been taken care of. Such as, did the owner know to check the oil and top it off at every fill up? Ask them leading questions, such as, how often did you check the oil? How much oil does it burn? How often did you have to add oil? If they give you regular car responses like "Oh it doesn't burn any oil at all! I've never had to top it off!", then run away.

Go for one of the last generation RX8's, 2009 or newer. They had some upgrades, most importantly 3 oil injectors instead of 2, that made them more reliable and less trouble-prone than the earlier ones.

In the end, while the RX8 and BRZ share many similarities (and the BRZ is probably the closest thing to the RX8 on the market today), for me I traded some of the uniqueness, personality, magic, and problems, of the RX8 for a little less magic and passion, but a whole lot more reliability and less maintenance neediness, with the BRZ. Being 60-something and getting tired of problems and breakdowns, it was the 'rational' choice, and for me, the right one.

But the RX8 for me is still like that old long lost love, the passionate, exciting, scintillating flame I can never forget. She wasn't the one to marry, but man was it fun while it lasted, and I do miss her.

So romantic and poetic, almost felt an itch in my eyes haha

Edit: sounds like RX8 fits your needs better (especially since it's not your DD)

[HaXx]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

Curious why FC over the FD?

They are the older and more rare brother. more unique.

they dont get the spotlight but thats ok. i notice. dont get me wrong im in love with the FD. its kind of like the r34 vs r32, both great, the 34 gets all the love because its faster and newer, better. on an even more extreme metaphor 240z>370z. the 370 is more powerful, faster, but it takes a certain enthusiasts eye to recognize a 240. so on some level, i always appreciate the earlier generation more. mk1>mk whatever gti they are on now, etc. if i saw a mk1 gti drive by i might hit a tree, but a new gti, dont even notice it. dont ask my opinion of the new supra. these are extreme examples to illustrate my point of course. i see the fd and fc much more closely related.

on the most extreme example, ask anyone here if theyd have a toyota ae86 or a frs.

so my opinion is based solely on that, and nothing mechanical, i am unaware of the mechanical differences between the FC and FD.

[Bluefire98]

Btw I think something you'll see in a lot of reviews comparing the twins to other sports cars is people ragging on the engine or that it doesn't feel special. As if the car has no charm. I think everyone here would agree that something like the twins is hard to find, and just by the nature of the car, it is a bit special even if it doesn't destroy mustangs at every light. The actual feel of the car is remarkable and it's very rare that I encounter something that has that same feel. Hope you get to drive both before you decide. Both are excellent cars

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

Curious why FC over the FD?

Originally Posted by HaXx

They are the older and more rare brother. more unique.

??? FD are *way way way* more rare in the U.S. They only sold about 14,000 FDs 1992-1995 in the US vs about 155,000 FCs from 1986-1991!

Worldwide, they kept selling the FD thru 1999, but still overall sold 4.5x more FCs than FDs.

[Dphillips1127]

Well here it is! Ignore ugly garage pic. They delivered it at 10:30pm. Will take better pics soon!

Thanks for everyone’s advice!

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Dphillips1127

Well here it is! Ignore ugly garage pic. They delivered it at 10:30pm. Will take better pics soon!

Thanks for everyone’s advice!

Congratulations, and have fun with it!!

[Dphillips1127]

Better daylight photo

[Ernest72]

Congrats. She looks nice, but fix that front lip.

[Willpower]

Congratulations! These are great fun cars!

[Dphillips1127]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

Congrats. She looks nice, but fix that front lip.

ugh yeah thanks for reminding me

[TunaNoCrust]

Congrats on the purchase, love that blue! You made the right choice, and I own both an 86 and an "RX8"

[Hades]

Nice! Congrats! Don't worry about the lip it is just an excuse to drive the car harder and not worry so much. Your car looks better than mine and I've had it since new - I bought this car to drive not to look at.

[Bluefire98]

Gorgeous car! Enjoy man. And welcome to the club!

[av8rdav]

I've owned both types. I am a huge fan of the rotary engine. I've rebuilt a few of them and they don't get much more simple than 3 moving parts.
I like the BRZ boxer engine and have a lot of time logged with boxer engines in airplanes. We call them horizontally opposed engines. Lycoming and Continental.