The need for an oil cooler when going FI (Temperature Data Inside)

[evo4g63]

Originally Posted by Ironsquid

Not sure why you are scared, there's been no documented case of any engine failure due to oil viscosity breakdown on the 86.

If there is a case, please show it here. Otherwise, no real reason to be scared and no real reason to scare others into thinking they absolutely need something because 220+ temps "seems" high.

You are correct as in there are no real documented failures on this for this platform.

I also do no personally have any hard written facts to support engine failure myself on this platform. I should have made myself clear as IMO personally it is a good idea to have one. For my actual piece of mind I say this but you're correct, it isn't absolutely needed for normal street driving.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by Ironsquid

To your surprise, most of the engine internals in today's market are quite similar.

I'd also be willing to bet that oil breaks down before metal, I'm no scientist but seems legit.

I also don't trust people that have off-hand wild comments followed by "trust me" (and the fact that I actually don't know you).

"to my surprise" thanks, I'm very up to speed on what different internals look like OEM and aftermarket. And you're wrong, they are definitely not all similar. Engine internals are always getting much better but they "all" aren't very similar, your claim is far too vague and you can't back that up. Please let me know your source for this information --- my source for information is having worked on at least 20 different platforms and multiple (many) engine's over the last several years.

In all fairness, the FRS/BRZ do have decent internals OEM but you can't compare them to that of a turbo charged Porsche that is designed from factory to run at those temps.

FYI, Porsche have oil coolers OEM for turbocharged applications but I guess they're just crazy-pants too

[Ironsquid]

Originally Posted by Sniper2606

Remind me not to ever log and research anything here, seems like some of you guys are extremely unappreciated.

Chris is just trying to keep the car safe and you guys are just shitting all over him.

You call this research? I see no actual data from anyone in this thread, including myself.

I think you forget vendors on this forum are trying to sell products. That's the point of a vendor. Some vendors try to help people, this generates business or "hype". This isn't the first time I've seen "hype" about an issue posted by a vendor.

People have jobs to do and are trying to make money, that's fine. My point is that if you want to raise awareness about a topic, please be more careful in your wording, and try not to use scare tactics. The users of this forum should EXPECT real world data about products their going to spend hard earned cash on, not because they say "trust me".

When I saw (Temperature Data Inside) in the forum title, I was pretty let down to see a 1-2 line comment about a highway pull and sitting idle. I was expecting to see like, actual science, about why oil coolers are needed in an FI application.

I may be hated for saying this, but, "come on man".

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by jamesm

my car ran ~230f bone stock... so if that's the case (re: gasket materials and what not) then toyota has some serious warranty concerns coming down the line.

Once again, missing the point. I'm not saying these cars don't have a higher temperature or equipped to handle 230F on occasion.....TURBO COOLING -- AN OIL COOLER TO COOL THE TURBO WHICH HAS NONE FROM THE FACTORY RUNNING INSANE TEMPS.

Maybe in caps you guys will get it haha


Hot oil will kill your turbo, point final. Then that extra hot oil splash back through the engine at 240-270F on repeated pulls, recipe for disaster. If you guys can shell out the extra coin to add an oil cooler to your turbo setup, then you should rethink the turbo upgrade all together

That's my two cents, please take my advice and keep your turbo cool and don't put your engine through unnecessarily high temps

[Ironsquid]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

"to my surprise" thanks, I'm very up to speed on what different internals look like OEM and aftermarket. And you're wrong, they are definitely not all similar. Engine internals are always getting much better but they "all" aren't very similar, your claim is far too vague and you can't back that up. Please let me know your source for this information --- my source for information is having worked on at least 20 different platforms and multiple (many) engine's over the last several years.

In all fairness, the FRS/BRZ do have decent internals OEM but you can't compare them to that of a turbo charged Porsche that is designed from factory to run at those temps.

FYI, Porsche have oil coolers OEM for turbocharged applications but I guess they're just crazy-pants too

Ok bro.

I didn't say "turbocharged" porsches. I said the track Porsche guys. For your info, the vast majority of track porsches are n/a.

But I'd like to continue our discussion in PMs if you wish because frankly your posts are getting out of hand in my opinion.

[Jason@DSG]

as one last side note, turbos operate at 1200-2000F so with no cooling, you're going to be in trouble long term

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by Ironsquid

Ok bro.

I didn't say "turbocharged" porsches. I said the track Porsche guys. For your info, the vast majority of track porsches are n/a.

But I'd like to continue our discussion in PMs if you wish because frankly your posts are getting out of hand in my opinion.

No need, I spoke my peace. If you guys want to risk running a turbo with no cooler, power to you but that's a REALLY bad idea.

And that's coming from when I turbo'd one of my first cars and blew the head gasket within a year for that exact reason

[Ironsquid]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

as one last side note, turbos operate at 1200-2000F so with no cooling, you're going to be in trouble long term

I'm quoting this because of it's absurd.

None of those temps actually see the center cartridge. Those are purely EGTs.

Look man, just PM me your concerns it'll look better for you in the long run.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by Ironsquid

I'm quoting this because of it's absurd.

None of those temps actually see the center cartridge. Those are purely EGTs.

Look man, just PM me your concerns it'll look better for you in the long run.

I have no concerns, it's your cars. I'm just letting you know the truth that any turbo should have an oil cooler otherwise there will be piston blow by and head gasket failure in no time.

Cartridge temps are over 300F, that should be scary enough to want some sort of cooling don't you agree?

[Cheeseballs]

Originally Posted by Sniper2606

Remind me not to ever log and research anything here, seems like some of you guys are extremely unappreciated.

Chris is just trying to keep the car safe and you guys are just shitting all over him.

Regardless if 220F is "normal temp" i rather have my temps run lower.

I understand the OP's good intentions, but when your title says you have data inside, maybe it should have some logged, scientific data in it. Not "my temps were this during my 4th pull.

Originally Posted by Ironsquid

But I'd like to continue our discussion in PMs if you wish because frankly your posts are getting out of hand in my opinion.

Please let this continue in public. It's an entertaining read for some of us less educated people.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by Cheeseballs

I understand the OP's good intentions, but when your title says you have data inside, maybe it should have some logged, scientific data in it. Not "my temps were this during my 4th pull.



Please let this continue in public. It's an entertaining read for some of us less educated people.

Agreed! I apologize to @Ironsquid for being overly aggressive, it wasn't my intention but being in this industry, I've had so many "slamming my head on the desk moments" because people didn't take my advice (and I learned the hard way, breaking my car numerous times and rebuilding).

A turbo produces very high temperatures and is even more dangerous on a non factory FI application where there is no routing for oil cooling to the turbo. The turbo will be shot in no time after hard pulls or even worse, all that hot oil going back into the engine can cause piston blow-by and lift the head gasket.

Like I said, it's your cars so by all means run whatever setup you want, but learn from the cars I've busted over the years and do it the right way. It will give you peace of mind, longevity on your setup and freedom to kick the crap out of it without breaking anything (or at least doing your best to avoid this).

@spdbydesign, run the car on the dyno doing some repeated pulls with and without the cooler to get broader data.

[AllDayJonRay]

"Trust me, I blow up engines" isn't the greatest qualifier if you're discussing making engines last...

Ironsquid isn't comparing Porsche engine internals with the FA20's, he's comparing the oil temperatures experienced between the two. Correct me if I'm wrong, but oil's purpose is pretty constant across all manufacturers. And that purpose is lubrication. This leads to reason that we should be comparing oil temperatures, and determining our oil coiling needs (if any) based on the oils effective operating temperature.

As actual data has shown, 220* is quite far from achieving this degradation if quality oil is used, and pretty close to typical operating temperatures.

As James pointed out, a vast majority (I'd risk being proven wrong by even saying close to 99%) of us are simply driving our cars spiritedly, with a potential trip to the racetrack every so often. With all the fear-mongering about dangerously high oil temperatures, people lose sight of what is important, which is keeping the oil within its effective operating temperature range.

The concern isn't always too much heat. We have about as much concern as possible going around about super hot days combined with strenuous driving conditions, but let's not forget that oil's operating range has a minimum end as well. Solving the heat problem for the 2 days a year that most of our cars will see scorching heat and a track, we can actually cause problems (or increased engine wear) during the rest of the year, especially for those of us who experience winter and drive moderately civil 95% of the time.

Having a super effective oil cooler may keep your oil cool enough to stay safe in the extreme heat, but it will also slow down the process of bringing your oil up to operating temperatures in the winter. This will increase wear. Bob the oil guy says 212* is typical of oil operating temperature. Using that figure and the numbers SPD is sharing (183* cruising with ambients of ~90*), you're probably going to experience oil temperatures undesirably low on cool/cold days (you don't really want to run oil temps below 180*). I'd venture to say that, in those circumstances, running an oil cooler in the winter is just as dangerous as not running an oil cooler in the summer.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by AllDayJonRay

"Trust me, I blow up engines" isn't the greatest qualifier if you're discussing making engines last...

Ironsquid isn't comparing Porsche engine internals with the FA20's, he's comparing the oil temperatures experienced between the two. Correct me if I'm wrong, but oil's purpose is pretty constant across all manufacturers. And that purpose is lubrication. This leads to reason that we should be comparing oil temperatures, and determining our oil coiling needs (if any) based on the oils effective operating temperature.

As actual data has shown, 220* is quite far from achieving this degradation if quality oil is used, and pretty close to typical operating temperatures.

As James pointed out, a vast majority (I'd risk being proven wrong by even saying close to 99%) of us are simply driving our cars spiritedly, with a potential trip to the racetrack every so often. With all the fear-mongering about dangerously high oil temperatures, people lose sight of what is important, which is keeping the oil within its effective operating temperature range.

The concern isn't always too much heat. We have about as much concern as possible going around about super hot days combined with strenuous driving conditions, but let's not forget that oil's operating range has a minimum end as well. Solving the heat problem for the 2 days a year that most of our cars will see scorching heat and a track, we can actually cause problems (or increased engine wear) during the rest of the year, especially for those of us who experience winter and drive moderately civil 95% of the time.

Having a super effective oil cooler may keep your oil cool enough to stay safe in the extreme heat, but it will also slow down the process of bringing your oil up to operating temperatures in the winter. This will increase wear. Bob the oil guy says 212* is typical of oil operating temperature. Using that figure and the numbers SPD is sharing (183* cruising with ambients of ~90*), you're probably going to experience oil temperatures undesirably low on cool/cold days (you don't really want to run oil temps below 180*). I'd venture to say that, in those circumstances, running an oil cooler in the winter is just as dangerous as not running an oil cooler in the summer.

Actually he specifically said "most engine internals are the similar these days" and in that context was comparing FRS internals to a Porsche NA track car.

Concerning blowing engines, this was in racing applications where that's pretty common. I'm trying to shed light on what I learned from those experiences.

I agree 100% there is an optimal operating temp. Too cold and you can destroy the engine equally. My concern here is keeping the turbo from dying long-term (which will very likely happen) and save people from having to replace parts (especially expensive ones like a turbo). Anything that produces excess amounts of heat need cooling in automotive. I'm not worried about oil degradation. Now, I completely agree there should be some sort of thermostat to keep it at ideal temps.

The new Mishimoto with the Thermostatic sandwich plate seems like a good choice IMO

[AllDayJonRay]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

I'm specifically talking for any FI application being added to this car to cool the turbo and all seals/gaskets inside the engine which are not designed to withstand those temperatures. (not referring to OEM NA cars, occasional pulls).

You're confusing the role of engine oil. Engine oil's role is lubrication, first and foremost.

Hot oil will kill your turbo, point final. Then that extra hot oil splash back through the engine at 240-270F on repeated pulls, recipe for disaster.

Hot oil will not kill your turbo. Boiling/burning oil, or oil that has lost its lubricant properties, will kill your turbo. None of this is happening to oil that is constantly circulating past your bearings (whether your crank journals or turbocharger) at 240-270*.