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View Poll Results: What name should Toyota use for the production Toyota FT-1?
Supra gets my vote! 367 74.59%
I don't know, but its time for a new name. 125 25.41%
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:09 PM   #3319
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Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRX View Post
https://www.supramkv.com/threads/mkv...uestions.1341/



I stand corrected, it has not been confirmed but I probably very likely.

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That claim has no weight in facts though. There's no way BMW will put an iron block back in the Z4.

I will eat my hat if the motor isn't made like this:

1: Aluminum or Magnesium alloy block with iron/steel sleeves, copper coated

2: Forged steel crank

3: Fracture-split single crystal aluminum alloy rods

3: Cast aluminum alloy pistons

All BMW's turbo engines since the N54 have been like that, I see no reason to change it. The N54 holds 1000 HP on an unopened longblock, IF you can fuel it.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:12 PM   #3320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
That claim has no weight in facts though. There's no way BMW will put an iron block back in the Z4.

I will eat my hat if the motor isn't made like this:

1: Aluminum or Magnesium alloy block with iron/steel sleeves, copper coated

2: Forged steel crank

3: Fracture-split single crystal aluminum alloy rods

3: Cast aluminum alloy pistons

All BMW's turbo engines since the N54 have been like that, I see no reason to change it. The N54 holds 1000 HP on an unopened block, IF you can fuel it.
Insider A70TTR has hinted the Z4 will use the strandard B58.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:12 PM   #3321
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Yeah, we have been told be various internal sources to expect some type of "iron" block, most likely CGI from my research. Weight penalty should be minimal as CGI is a material that can be much lighter than grey iron with similar strength. The motor and head design are a BMW collaboration with the head being carefully engineered by Toyota to integrate their proprietary technologies and ensure reliability.

Again, this is from Toyotas sources but I haven't seen any hard evidence that proves it so take it as you will.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:13 PM   #3322
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvoll View Post
So if you take an objective view of this manual vs. automatic thing, you get the following:

1. Modern automatics have more gears and shift faster.
2. Modern automatics can be manually controlled through paddle shifters.
3. You can get faster track times with modern automatics.
4. Modern automatics (not in the 86) have manual features such as launch mode.
5. Manuals are much better at giving you a visceral experience because you can make shifting mistakes and thus it is more up to the skill of the driver, i.e., it is more of a challenge.
6. Manuals are much more fun on road trips.
7. Automatics are much better in traffic.
8. Modern automatics can get better gas mileage.

We don't have a modern automatic in our cars, which tilts the decision towards getting a manual and why it should probably be the transmission of choice for our car. Put in a dual clutch 8-10 speed unit and that calculus would change. For corporate profitability reasons in a low volume car, I don't see that happening until either the 86 is discontinued or a next generation is introduced.

In full disclosure, I have an auto and drive mostly around town with monthly rides in the countryside. The paddle shifters do work well and give me control, but it is not as much fun as a manual would be. Ride quality is important when my wife is in the car, and the auto is much more comfortable than the manual with PP both in terms of ride smoothness and smoothness of shifts.

I don't track my cars anymore, but at the track I'd want the one that gives me the best lap times and am much less concerned about "fun". Currently, I think. for this car, without a dual clutch, that's a toss up. However, if the car had a modern auto, I would choose the auto for the track.
I'm not sure what time of track events you went to, but at the ones I go to the focus is on becoming a better driver and having fun. Improving, and lowering, lap times is great because it's empirical evidence that you're becoming a better driver at the given track. Do you NEED to have lower lap times to convince yourself you're having fun? I would hope not. That's a ridiculous form of enjoyment validation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Is the NSX a profitable car? If it is then it probably wouldn’t be if they did a manual in there too. Track queens ehh.

Porsche GT3 touring edition because of the popularity of the 911R. Apparently being the fastest isn’t the only thing that matters.
It's important to note here that due to the uproar caused by the PDK only 911 GT3, not only did Porsche increase manual availability, they developed a new manual transmission. The 6 speed manual which debuted in the 911R is not the same 6 speed used previously by other Porsche sports cars. It is a new unit, which is now available on the 911 GT3 & GT3 Touring. The GT3 RS remains PDK only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krayzie View Post
Come to the big cities and you will noticed these days the 1% who drive these new expensive sports / supercars are mostly wealthy Chinese kids that can't even drive properly they can't be bothered rowing their own gears (like what's that?).

Cars are just going thru this "digital" phase (think quartz watches and CD players of the past), I'm sure the manual transmission will eventually make a come back as a luxury commodity (they pull this shit everytime something gets obsolete) in a big way like mechanical watches and turntables of today.

The A90 being supposedly the Toyota sports flagship means they have something to prove against the likes of the R35 GTR and such, and needs to chase after numbers being late to the game. The GTR wasn't 6 figures when it first came out. The Toyota brand has to communicate "value" as they have Lexus when it comes to high price.
The Value of manual transmission sports cars will never go away on the secondary market. Sports cars values' remain higher when they are equipped with manual transmissions (regardless of whether or not it was a rare option). Automatic transmission technology is always changing (and can lead to technological dead ends and oddities) but the manual transmission remains the same. It's consistent.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:14 PM   #3323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
That claim has no weight in facts though. There's no way BMW will put an iron block back in the Z4.

I will eat my hat if the motor isn't made like this:

1: Aluminum or Magnesium alloy block with iron/steel sleeves, copper coated

2: Forged steel crank

3: Fracture-split single crystal aluminum alloy rods

3: Cast aluminum alloy pistons

All BMW's turbo engines since the N54 have been like that, I see no reason to change it. The N54 holds 1000 HP on an unopened block, IF you can fuel it.
That's what I would have guessed a month ago or so. But from the info "A70" from the MKV forum has provided, it is highly likely that link's speculation will be true. He works at Toyota and pretty much all of his info has been proven to be true eventually.

CGI was used to keep the engine weight relatively light but still as strong as an iron block.

I guess we'll find out soon.

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Old 07-30-2018, 01:15 PM   #3324
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[QUOTE=Guff;3115941 the head being carefully engineered by Toyota to integrate their proprietary technologies and ensure reliability.[/QUOTE]


Hmm, I wonder if that means we'd get dual port/direct injection again...
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:21 PM   #3325
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This is a curiosity, but I've got to ask. What's the point of reinventing the wheel?

ASSUMING all reports about the Supra's power rating are remotely accurate (roughly 335hp and 400 lb-ft torque) then why the hell would anyone bother giving the Supra anything bespoke? The BMW 3.0 liter six already makes 300-460 hp in various iterations.

I fail to see the logic here, assuming the Supra has less than 400 hp.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:23 PM   #3326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
This is a curiosity, but I've got to ask. What's the point of reinventing the wheel?

ASSUMING all reports about the Supra's power rating are remotely accurate (roughly 335hp and 400 lb-ft torque) then why the hell would anyone bother giving the Supra anything bespoke? The BMW 3.0 liter six already makes 300-460 hp in various iterations.

I fail to see the logic here, assuming the Supra has less than 400 hp.


That's the train of thought I'm coming off.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:23 PM   #3327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvoll View Post
This begs the question of what is "fun to drive"? Society is changing. People like the automation of smartphones -- they don't want to use a dial phone anymore, or even a flip phone without a touch screen. Today's cars have more stuff going on with phones, messaging, music. Cities are getting more crowded so driving a stick in stop and go traffic is not fun. While this is going on, automatics are getting more advanced with more speeds than manuals, quicker shifting, extra modes like sport, eco, and launch. Automatics get better mileage so you have fewer trips to the gas station. As cars get more hp, you don't need a stick to go really fast. As you go faster than ever before, it is more important to focus on the road than on shifting. If the 86 had 600 hp, your enjoyment would be going really fast and not necessarily shifting.

I get it. You are more connected with the car and the road with a manual and stiffer suspension. But "fun to drive" is more than just shifting and being uncomfortable in your seat. Times are changing and so is the definition of "fun to drive". If you look at the future, as car designers do, then you can certainly have a really fun to drive car with an automatic.
my first 86 was an automatic. I had fun. My current one has a stick, I have even more fun. Shifting speeds, drive modes, MPG (really?), etc are not what I care about. End of story for me.

I get that isn't the case for everyone, there ain't anything wrong with that and I realize the % of enthusiasts is dwindling against the more casual consumers.. Again, if this Supra turns out to be a power monster then it would be a bit of a different story but Tada-san has been raving on and on about CoG & chassis stiffness not to mention this has been benchmarking the Cayman over and over..perplexing how smaller manufacturers like Porsche and Jaguar can offer sticks on their coupes yet it sounds like Toyota doesn't want to pay a little more money to BMW to include one.

I think the best compromise for everyone is to make manuals an option which cost a couple extra grand instead of being cheaper than the auto variants. Think manual enthusiasts would be happy to pay to get what they want and the manufacturer can better recoup the MT development costs, win/win?
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:25 PM   #3328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
This is a curiosity, but I've got to ask. What's the point of reinventing the wheel?

ASSUMING all reports about the Supra's power rating are remotely accurate (roughly 335hp and 400 lb-ft torque) then why the hell would anyone bother giving the Supra anything bespoke? The BMW 3.0 liter six already makes 300-460 hp in various iterations.

I fail to see the logic here, assuming the Supra has less than 400 hp.
Because the highest trim model will have close to 400. Toyota wanted something "for the tuners", hence why they might have gone the CGI route. Again, this is all speculation, however, I am a believer that Toyota will deliver on this one.

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Old 07-30-2018, 01:39 PM   #3329
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My guess is weight. They could have gone with a B58 but I guess it didn't cut it for the "tuner" aspect and reliablity to handle the power (even though I think the B58 has decent potential).

And an off the shelf +400hp BMW engine would have weight too much and ruined the handling aspect of the MKV specially if it was iron.

The middle ground was a light weight CGI "B58". That's my opinion anyway.

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Old 07-30-2018, 01:39 PM   #3330
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A70 has said the new engine has been tested to hold 700hp.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:45 PM   #3331
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^I'm guessing that's 700 reliably?

Because the BMW N54 could reliably do that 10 years ago. Though I don't know much about the B58.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:49 PM   #3332
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An interesting question, I think is, who would not buy a new Supra if the only transmission option is manual (3 pedal)?
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