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Old 10-20-2020, 09:25 AM   #1
dasting
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Learn Me - Square F/R Pads with/without ABS

New to the BRZ platform, not to track. (SM racer, Miata time trialer, know how to sling). I've never used ABS in a track car. Getting all my ducks in a row to have the car on track from time to time, I've read lots of threads on brake pads, and there have been a lot of suggestions to keep the pads square front to back (my car is non Brembo, non BBK, just the 11.5ish vented front/rear).

I have also been reading the various threads and multiple people having ABS/VSC braking issues, despite doing the pedal dance, and it creating pretty scary situations in subsequent braking zones.

I bought new DTC60s for front and rear, but with all the ABS issues I'm reading about, I am more temped to just pull ABS (I also have the trac-box coming to switch ABS off with from the dash).

I've read that the F/R biasing takes place within the ABS block. Honestly I don't know enough about how this works and whether it's an active biasing or what.

My question is - with ABS off, am I making a mistaking following the recommendations to stay with the same pad front and rear, and should I be following the old logic of putting a DCT30, or even HP+ enhanced on the rear aka staggering pads? Or does the biasing still work with a square pad setup even when ABS is off?

Appreciate it.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:42 AM   #2
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I'm the guy who went off at Watkins Glen due to VCS/ABS going nuts and locking left front then both fronts I did get a warning in the form of the VSC warning light and ABS light, but dayum... This was most definitely a confused microprocessor actuating the bejeezus out of the fronts, particularly left front, calipers, even with "modest" (~80% of "normal") effort at the pedal.

Running with the 40A ABS fuse pulled is working fine for me with CSG Spec C2 front pads and WinMax W5 rears, both cold (initial lap(s)) and hot (8-10+ laps). I always get front lockup first, easy to modulate. These pads *should* be in the same range as far as coefficient of friction, probably a bit front-biased @CSG Mike might have good info on that...

Anyway, I would have zero qualms about running the same pads front and rear with the ABS fuse pulled, that would be my preference in fact but tryna use up these W5 rears! It seems to me that the built-in mechanical front/rear bias is appropriately front-biased, but not TOO front-biased. The rears seem to be contributing their fair share, as opposed to when the ABS/VSC were locking the fronts HARD at relatively modest brake pedal application, with the rears doing little/nothing...

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Old 10-20-2020, 10:47 AM   #3
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Old logic of lots of pad in the front and shitty pads in the rear is awful. I dont know where this originates from, but please stop. Trailing the brakes with that kind of bias is just not possible.

If you are already used to braking without ABS on the track, you will hate the braking experience with the ABS on this car. Way too intrusive for no reason, and random troubles for some people as you have already read.

If you pull the ABS fuse (or put it off with the trac-box), you bias will be even more towards the front. Your rear brakes wont do shit, and thats with square pads, imagine if you had higher friction pads on the front than rear.

If you dont plan on ever using ABS on the car and you dont mind not having any TC or SC, I would suggest you remove the ABS unit altogether and add a proportioning valve to the rear line to adjust your bias to your liking. Run square pads and adjust with the valve, dont adjust with the pads.
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:01 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
I'm the guy who went off at Watkins Glen due to VCS/ABS going nuts and locking left front then both fronts I did get a warning in the form of the VSC warning light and ABS light, but dayum... This was most definitely a confused microprocessor actuating the bejeezus out of the fronts, particularly left front, calipers, even with "modest" (~80% of "normal") effort at the pedal.

Running with the 40A ABS fuse pulled is working fine for me with CSG Spec C2 front pads and WinMax W5 rears, both cold (initial lap(s)) and hot (8-10+ laps). I always get front lockup first, easy to modulate. These pads *should* be in the same range as far as coefficient of friction, probably a bit front-biased @CSG Mike might have good info on that...

Anyway, I would have zero qualms about running the same pads front and rear with the ABS fuse pulled, that would be my preference in fact but tryna use up these W5 rears! It seems to me that the built-in mechanical front/rear bias is appropriately front-biased, but not TOO front-biased. The rears seem to be contributing their fair share, as opposed to when the ABS/VSC were locking the fronts HARD at relatively modest brake pedal application, with the rears doing little/nothing...
Yep, been following your threads and what prompted the question. Appreciate all the info, and good to hear your use on track without ABS is going so well with similar friction pads f/r.

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Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk View Post
Old logic of lots of pad in the front and shitty pads in the rear is awful. I dont know where this originates from, but please stop. Trailing the brakes with that kind of bias is just not possible.

If you are already used to braking without ABS on the track, you will hate the braking experience with the ABS on this car. Way too intrusive for no reason, and random troubles for some people as you have already read.

If you pull the ABS fuse (or put it off with the trac-box), you bias will be even more towards the front. Your rear brakes wont do shit, and thats with square pads, imagine if you had higher friction pads on the front than rear.

If you dont plan on ever using ABS on the car and you dont mind not having any TC or SC, I would suggest you remove the ABS unit altogether and add a proportioning valve to the rear line to adjust your bias to your liking. Run square pads and adjust with the valve, dont adjust with the pads.
This is the info I was looking for, thank you. I just couldn't find info on what the biasing was like when the ABS wasn't doing anything. Yes, TC/SC are always off in my car, and don't feel like dealing with ABS issues, so I will be shutting off ABS for now on track and leave the pads square. Eventually I will move to a proportioning valve but the car still gets too much street use to worry about it yet.


Any other info is appreciated, but looks like I am staying square.
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:01 AM   #5
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Do not pull ABS, trust me. I have ABS and non-ABS race cars (miata), and the ABS in this car is perfectly fine for racing. In fact, I think it works just as well the the Tevis/MK60 that most people upgrade to from the BMW E46M3. I have one of the best braking cars in the entire field, stock ABS, square pad setup.

I think the biggest problem people have, with regard to ABS and pads, are that the race pads used tend to be too much initial bite, ESPECIALLY with cars on street tires. I ALWAYS run endurance type track pads, even for sprint racing. They have lower initial bite, last forever, offer more modulation and don't seem overly intrusive on the ABS. Track/race pads are getting so aggressive these days, with super-high, super flat torque curves, and people don't realize many of them are FULL race pads designed for motorsport type ABS programs, not street ABS. That's why endurance pads, with a slightly rising torque curve with heat, are usually the best pads for street ABS programs.

We tested the Raybestos ST-42 (their lesser known endurance compound) a few years ago on our WRL miatas, and loved them so much, I've been using them on my FRS sprint car the entire time. They offer all the performance this car will need, and seem to play very well with the ABS. And cheap.

My 3 favorite pads of all time, are Pagid RS29, PFC08, and Raybestos ST-42....all endurance compounds. Give them a try, I think once you get used to the ABS, it will definitely be an advantage. All the fast miatas in our field will soon be adding ABS because they simply can't compete with us FRS/BMW/Hondas in the brake zones....
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:34 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk View Post
Old logic of lots of pad in the front and shitty pads in the rear is awful. I dont know where this originates from, but please stop. Trailing the brakes with that kind of bias is just not possible.
100% agree. Never been a fan of "staggered" front/rear setups with the rears effectively de-powered.

Quote:
If you are already used to braking without ABS on the track, you will hate the braking experience with the ABS on this car. Way too intrusive for no reason, and random troubles for some people as you have already read.
I loved the ABS on my '17 PP before it went psycho. Never intrusive at all, it worked great IMO. Until yaw sensor error caused mayhem...

Quote:
If you pull the ABS fuse (or put it off with the trac-box), you bias will be even more towards the front. Your rear brakes wont do shit, and thats with square pads, imagine if you had higher friction pads on the front than rear.
Of course without ABS to dynamically adjust braking independently at the four wheels, built-in mechanical bias will cause earlier locking particularly on the unloaded side of the car. It is *good* that this bias is to the fronts, as front lockups are more easily modulated while rear lockup is inherently unstable. It's my impression that the front bias, while limiting ultimate braking performance vs. functioning ABS, isn't a huge problem even with my slightly front-biased (I think) pads. I do look forward to trying CSG Spec C2s front and rear though which I think will improve braking performance and reduce front lockups without causing initial rear lockups.

Quote:
If you dont plan on ever using ABS on the car and you dont mind not having any TC or SC, I would suggest you remove the ABS unit altogether and add a proportioning valve to the rear line to adjust your bias to your liking. Run square pads and adjust with the valve, dont adjust with the pads.
For a street car this might not be the best idea IMO...

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Originally Posted by prandelia View Post
Do not pull ABS, trust me. I have ABS and non-ABS race cars (miata), and the ABS in this car is perfectly fine for racing.
This is my impression as well. It worked perfectly fine for me, no complaints at all. Until it went nuts! I didn't expect braking behavior so extreme (actively clamping/locking left front, then both fronts) after getting VSC warning light...

As in my thread, I'd say check for warning lights before every braking zone, if you get VSC and/or ABS lights, take it *super super easy* and brake EARLY next braking zone, leaving plenty of room if you have to get out of the brakes after initial application. If you get VSC and/or ABS warning lights, I recommend bringing the car in and pulling the 40A ABS fuse.
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:57 AM   #7
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From my own experience, which is worth whatever you think its worth, dont read too much into it, the ABS works, but it does not make it better, just easier.

Every time, in each braking zone I need to tip-toe around ABS activation. If im in a flying lap, squeezing every inch of track and time, and ABS kicks in during braking (specially early on), I'll miss that corner. Its not a huge margin, but missing proper turn-in point or going in too hot is a few tenths. A few tenths here and a few tenths there and boom, you are several seconds slower that you would be.

I tried just removing the ABS fuse, and while the braking distances stayed more or less the same, trailing the car into the corners felt more forced, it killed a lot of rotation.

I guess it all comes down to how you brake, but looking at the data, there is no reason my car can pull up to 1.3 to 1.6Gs lateral in most non banked corners, but only around 0.9 to 1G of braking. Its almost as if there is some sort of barrier that activates ABS after a certain threshold. It would be sweet if someone in hoosiers or slicks would post data with higher than 1G during braking while ABS is working.

Braking only 1G(mostly, with a slight turn in already initiated):


Lateral grip at apex 1.3G, almost 0 acceleration


Braking while turning, 0.8G braking, 1.1G turning, almost 2G total


So 2Gs total while only being able to produce 1G in braking makes no sense at all. Im sure you all know about the grip circle, seems like im driving on a grip square...

Edit: this was all with ABS on. Braking any stronger than that on that first image triggered ABS and made me run out of track a few times (barely missing going out).
Edit 2: here's a video of that day
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Old 10-20-2020, 12:47 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by prandelia View Post
Do not pull ABS, trust me. I have ABS and non-ABS race cars (miata), and the ABS in this car is perfectly fine for racing. In fact, I think it works just as well the the Tevis/MK60 that most people upgrade to from the BMW E46M3. I have one of the best braking cars in the entire field, stock ABS, square pad setup.

I think the biggest problem people have, with regard to ABS and pads, are that the race pads used tend to be too much initial bite, ESPECIALLY with cars on street tires. I ALWAYS run endurance type track pads, even for sprint racing. They have lower initial bite, last forever, offer more modulation and don't seem overly intrusive on the ABS. Track/race pads are getting so aggressive these days, with super-high, super flat torque curves, and people don't realize many of them are FULL race pads designed for motorsport type ABS programs, not street ABS. That's why endurance pads, with a slightly rising torque curve with heat, are usually the best pads for street ABS programs.

We tested the Raybestos ST-42 (their lesser known endurance compound) a few years ago on our WRL miatas, and loved them so much, I've been using them on my FRS sprint car the entire time. They offer all the performance this car will need, and seem to play very well with the ABS. And cheap.

My 3 favorite pads of all time, are Pagid RS29, PFC08, and Raybestos ST-42....all endurance compounds. Give them a try, I think once you get used to the ABS, it will definitely be an advantage. All the fast miatas in our field will soon be adding ABS because they simply can't compete with us FRS/BMW/Hondas in the brake zones....
Funny you say this.

It's very easy to make a high friction high temp pad. It's very difficult (and expensive) to make a low friction high temp pad.

If those 3 pads are your standards, the C2 will blow your standard out of the water. If you already know the value of an enduro pad, I dare you to try the CE2 on the BRZ.
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Old 10-20-2020, 01:16 PM   #9
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@Icecreamtruk
Given the difference in car balance/dynamics, tire deformation and slip angle involved in the 2 different scenarios; lateral and longitudinal g-loading, I'm not sure why there should be an expectation that the car should produce the same outcome.

As for pads or ABS... Maximize. ABS or not, you gotta find the combo that maximizes. I detail my journey on this front in my T4 build where I had to find a front pad I couldn't glaze/fade and then find a rear pad that does the most amount work before inducing too much rear ABS as rear ABS engagement happens pretty readily on a car that's not 50/50.

Generally speaking, and as commented above, ABS cars often hold the advantage over cars without.
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Old 10-20-2020, 01:19 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk View Post
From my own experience, which is worth whatever you think its worth, dont read too much into it, the ABS works, but it does not make it better, just easier.
My impression is that, when functioning properly, my car brakes better with ABS. Without it, I get inside front wheel lockup at what seems to me to be lower level of braking, which makes me go wide and lose time.

Quote:
Every time, in each braking zone I need to tip-toe around ABS activation. If im in a flying lap, squeezing every inch of track and time, and ABS kicks in during braking (specially early on), I'll miss that corner. Its not a huge margin, but missing proper turn-in point or going in too hot is a few tenths.
Without ABS, you would lock the inside front and gone *further* offline and lost MORE time.

Without ABS, no matter how accurately the f/r bias is set, and no matter how skilled the driver, during trail-braking you are limited by the grip at the unloaded inside front tire, whereas *good* ABS it will prevent the inside front from locking, allowing it to continue to contribute to lateral grip, while at the same time allowing the outside front to brake harder and closer to its higher grip limit.

Quote:
A few tenths here and a few tenths there and boom, you are several seconds slower that you would be.
I've studied lap times vs. braking performance, and IMO there is no way there's any more than a couple/few tenths between good ABS vs. no ABS, and I'm betting on the "good ABS" being a bit quicker overall for most of us!

Quote:
I guess it all comes down to how you brake, but looking at the data, there is no reason my car can pull up to 1.3 to 1.6Gs lateral in most non banked corners, but only around 0.9 to 1G of braking.
Peak lateral grip and peak longitudinal grip for a tire are not going to be identical. Less so when the front tires are cambered around -4 degrees... A good track tire may also trade off a bit of longitudinal grip for more lateral grip. Also even a little banking will have an impact.

Quote:
Braking while turning, 0.8G braking, 1.1G turning, almost 2G total
You don't linearly add lateral and longitudinal gs, you RSS them:
sqrt(0.8^2 + 1.1^2) = 1.36g

Quote:
Edit: this was all with ABS on. Braking any stronger than that on that first image triggered ABS and made me run out of track a few times (barely missing going out).
If ABS engaging caused you to run out of track, imagine how much sooner you'd run out of track with the inside front locking up!

My thoughts, but you and your car are way way WAY faster than me at Mont Tremblant so I'll shut it now!
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Old 10-20-2020, 01:44 PM   #11
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I don't have anything to contribute (just reading an interesting discussion), but isn't this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Without ABS, you would lock the inside front and gone *further* offline and lost MORE time.

Without ABS, no matter how accurately the f/r bias is set, and no matter how skilled the driver, during trail-braking you are limited by the grip at the unloaded inside front tire, whereas *good* ABS it will prevent the inside front from locking, allowing it to continue to contribute to lateral grip, while at the same time allowing the outside front to brake harder and closer to its higher grip limit.
In conflict with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
I've studied lap times vs. braking performance, and IMO there is no way there's any more than a couple/few tenths between good ABS vs. no ABS, and I'm betting on the "good ABS" being a bit quicker overall for most of us!
Sounds like "good ABS" (which I take to mean good management of front/rear and left/right brake forces as well as not going full ABS when there's still grip available to some of the tires) would be worth more than a few tenths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
You don't linearly add lateral and longitudinal gs, you RSS them:
sqrt(0.8^2 + 1.1^2) = 1.36g
Yep, hence a grip circle.
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Old 10-20-2020, 02:22 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by dasting View Post
New to the BRZ platform, not to track. (SM racer, Miata time trialer, know how to sling). I've never used ABS in a track car. Getting all my ducks in a row to have the car on track from time to time, I've read lots of threads on brake pads, and there have been a lot of suggestions to keep the pads square front to back (my car is non Brembo, non BBK, just the 11.5ish vented front/rear).

I have also been reading the various threads and multiple people having ABS/VSC braking issues, despite doing the pedal dance, and it creating pretty scary situations in subsequent braking zones.

I bought new DTC60s for front and rear, but with all the ABS issues I'm reading about, I am more temped to just pull ABS (I also have the trac-box coming to switch ABS off with from the dash).

I've read that the F/R biasing takes place within the ABS block. Honestly I don't know enough about how this works and whether it's an active biasing or what.

My question is - with ABS off, am I making a mistaking following the recommendations to stay with the same pad front and rear, and should I be following the old logic of putting a DCT30, or even HP+ enhanced on the rear aka staggering pads? Or does the biasing still work with a square pad setup even when ABS is off?

Appreciate it.
Hey I see that you are in NJ and instruct with NASA. This is Ron S, ex CI, now ST5 BRZ racer. Come see me with any questions. I'll be at NJMP for our November event.

And to add to this conversation I run square pads, this car does not like less rear bite.
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Old 10-20-2020, 02:59 PM   #13
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Sounds like "good ABS" (which I take to mean good management of front/rear and left/right brake forces as well as not going full ABS when there's still grip available to some of the tires) would be worth more than a few tenths.
I really don't think the difference between "good" ABS and a "good" and well-driven non-ABS setup is gonna be more than a few tenths. Partly based on my *memory* of a study of effects of max braking g's on laptimes, where being able to brake at 1g vs. 0.85g only amounted to ~0.2sec or a bit less than that. So take with big grain o' salt. My conclusion at the time was that absolute braking g's is more important for being able to overtake in racing than it is for absolute lap times.
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Old 10-20-2020, 02:59 PM   #14
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^Ron - Just PMed you. Yeah, I will definitely see you at NJMP on the 7th. Looking forward to catching up.


To the rest - looks like there is no definitive answer to ABS, but a lot of good info nonetheless. My basic game plan is to run the square DTC60s and probably experiment with ABS both on and off. Having driven track for a decade with no ABS, I'm not the type to just stand on my brakes and let the ABS logic sort out the threshold, but I can see how good ABS might help. I've got my starting point now though.
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