ECUtek possible to tune unreliably?

[leevanf]

Hi, Not to pin anyone down as its something i am genuinely curious about in comparing oft to ecutek since oft is sorta DIY. I just realized most shops don't really discuss things like AFR, and other measures of stability/reliability with the owner. (maybe upon request) but really just talk about peak hp/tq results. So, is it actually possible to ecutek tune a car thats NA or with headers, to extract max hp/torque yet in an unreliable/less than ideal way? for example. two ECUtek tuners may end up giving the car the same HP/TQ from the same mods, except one was done with reliability and longetivity in mind? I just noticed that in my area at least, not much really talk about the other aspects of tuning, like better efficiency, reliability, response, etc.

The reason i ask is because i am going to be using stage 1 oft, but when the jdl/tomei uel arrives, thinking if i should sell the oft, and let an ECUtek tune take over?

[bababooey]

well that sounds like its up to the capability, experience, and other's feedback of the tuner u were to choose.

it seems an ecutek tune will get a few better numbers over an OTS tune, but the canned tunes arent overly aggressive to allow for running well on the majority of cars. meaning they arent dialed in a specifically to a particular vehicle. i suspect one with enough knowledge could dial in a tablet tune to be close to performance an experienced ecutek tuner could achieve.

[churchx]

JDL/tomei UELs IIRC were rather generic tune needs wise, imho one should be good enough using stage2 OFT OTS tunes on those. You also have steve99 & wayno around, if some help with fine tuning is needed . But i'd think of ecutek tune from well known shops (eg. delicious tuning) if i'd went for forced induction, or for few specific headers (like Ace or Nameless).

[FRS Justin]

Call Delicious Tuning and load the map and drive with confidence.. You should always do a data log to check performance of a tune, ALWAYS!!!!!!

[Tor]

Originally Posted by leevanf

Hi, Not to pin anyone down as its something i am genuinely curious about in comparing oft to ecutek since oft is sorta DIY. I just realized most shops don't really discuss things like AFR, and other measures of stability/reliability with the owner. (maybe upon request) but really just talk about peak hp/tq results.

Since the other posters don't answer your questions, I'll give it a go...

So, is it actually possible to ecutek tune a car thats NA or with headers, to extract max hp/torque yet in an unreliable/less than ideal way?

First of all, it's necessary to clear up the no. 1 misunderstanding when this topic comes up:
Speaking of a NA car, it doesn't matter diddly squat if the car is tuned with Ecutek's ProECU software, BRZEdit or RomRaider (forget OFT it's not a tuning device, it's a flashing device). How the tune, that is made in one of the above mentioned software, finds its way from a computer to the ECU doesn't matter (Ecutek Programming Kit, Tactrix, OFT, Kess etc.).

It's possible with all the above software to extract hp in undesirable ways. That may be e.g.: Too much timing, too lean.

In both cases, the car might run fine for a few minutes of hard driving. Afterward, when the engine internals heats up, the ECU will start to reduce ignition timing to prevent knock - causing a loss of performance.

So while it might look good on that one pull on the dyno, you may have significantly less power once driven on the road or especially a track.

for example. two ECUtek tuners may end up giving the car the same HP/TQ from the same mods, except one was done with reliability and longetivity in mind?

A proper tune will take the previous mentioned into account. So a reliable tune will keep performing after several pulls. A dyno-hero-tune may make a (slightly) prettier graph.

The ECU is very effective in dealing with knock. So it would have to be a disastrous tune to give longevity issues though.

Then there is the issue that the ECU learns fuel trims after being driven for a while. A tune made in 2 hours on a dyno doesn't account for that. More on that below...

I just noticed that in my area at least, not much really talk about the other aspects of tuning, like better efficiency, reliability, response, etc.

That's because there are no sales in that. Customers are drawn in with magical claims of 40% percent power increases from a header and a tune. It's magic!

The reason i ask is because i am going to be using stage 1 oft, but when the jdl/tomei uel arrives, thinking if i should sell the oft, and let an ECUtek tune take over?

Don't bother. You already have a flashing device (the OFT). RomRaider is free, and NA you don't have that many benefits from the extra features Ecutek will give you.

Some arguments for Ecutek though:
- Gimmicks like (proper) Flat Floor Shifting, rev match downshift, launch control etc.
- ECU Connect Bluetooth Interface (cool feature for logging and using an Apple/Android device for live logging) - but you already have the OFT which will do the same.
- Map switching if you plan to run different qualities of fuel 91/93.
- For advanced tuning extra tables where the tuner can program in special features. For a NA car not really necessary, and probably a lot of tuners won't use them.

Some arguments against Ecutek:
- First, if you get a remote tune - you WILL get a canned tune. That's the nature of remote tuning. So if the remote tune comes from Yummy tuning or Tablets Tuning, it's still a canned tune that in no way is tailored to your car. In both cases, it will need some dialing in. The remote tuner might offer to do a few revisions included in the price. Be aware that a few revisions might not be enough.
- The tune you get is in most cases LOCKED. That means no one can help you get it dialed in if later needed, except the tuner from where you bought the tune. And for sure he WILL charge you $ for it.
- If you decide to get a dyno tune locally, there is no guarantee that the tuner has any idea what he is doing or experience with the ft86. Also, a dyno tune alone is not ideal. After it has been tuned, it needs to be monitored what the ECU is learning and adjusted afterward, as mentioned previously. That leads us to...

Some arguments for canned tunes/road tuning:
- All FT86s come from the factory with a "canned" tune. They are not adjusting the cars individually before they leave the assembly line. Obviously! That's because a NA engine is not that complicated.
- In general, there is not that much to gain by dyno tuning an NA car. There are not that many parameters to adjust and most of them are no-brainers.
- Nobody will do "proper" dyno tuning for 500$ anyway due to time constraints/costs. If they were to dial it in perfectly, it would spend 2 days on the dyno and not 2 hours. Who will pay for that?
- Specifically for unlocked tunes, you can adjust them afterward yourself with the guidance of this very forum.

Just so you know where I'm coming from. Personally, I tune with RomRaider and flash with Tactrix. And I want to switch to EcuTek mainly because of interest and because I'd like to try it out. I would NEVER flash/let someone flash a locked tune to my ECU.

[leevanf]

Originally Posted by Tor

Since the other posters don't answer your questions, I'll give it a go...



First of all, it's necessary to clear up the no. 1 misunderstanding when this topic comes up:
Speaking of a NA car, it doesn't matter diddly squat if the car is tuned with Ecutek's ProECU software, BRZEdit or RomRaider (forget OFT it's not a tuning device, it's a flashing device). How the tune, that is made in one of the above mentioned software, finds its way from a computer to the ECU doesn't matter (Ecutek Programming Kit, Tactrix, OFT, Kess etc.).

It's possible with all the above software to extract hp in undesirable ways. That may be e.g.: Too much timing, too lean.

In both cases, the car might run fine for a few minutes of hard driving. Afterward, when the engine internals heats up, the ECU will start to reduce ignition timing to prevent knock - causing a loss of performance.

So while it might look good on that one pull on the dyno, you may have significantly less power once driven on the road or especially a track.


A proper tune will take the previous mentioned into account. So a reliable tune will keep performing after several pulls. A dyno-hero-tune may make a (slightly) prettier graph.

The ECU is very effective in dealing with knock. So it would have to be a disastrous tune to give longevity issues though.

Then there is the issue that the ECU learns fuel trims after being driven for a while. A tune made in 2 hours on a dyno doesn't account for that. More on that below...


That's because there are no sales in that. Customers are drawn in with magical claims of 40% percent power increases from a header and a tune. It's magic!



Don't bother. You already have a flashing device (the OFT). RomRaider is free, and NA you don't have that many benefits from the extra features Ecutek will give you.

Some arguments for Ecutek though:
- Gimmicks like (proper) Flat Floor Shifting, rev match downshift, launch control etc.
- ECU Connect Bluetooth Interface (cool feature for logging and using an Apple/Android device for live logging) - but you already have the OFT which will do the same.
- Map switching if you plan to run different qualities of fuel 91/93.
- For advanced tuning extra tables where the tuner can program in special features. For a NA car not really necessary, and probably a lot of tuners won't use them.

Some arguments against Ecutek:
- First, if you get a remote tune - you WILL get a canned tune. That's the nature of remote tuning. So if the remote tune comes from Yummy tuning or Tablets Tuning, it's still a canned tune that in no way is tailored to your car. In both cases, it will need some dialing in. The remote tuner might offer to do a few revisions included in the price. Be aware that a few revisions might not be enough.
- The tune you get is in most cases LOCKED. That means no one can help you get it dialed in if later needed, except the tuner from where you bought the tune. And for sure he WILL charge you $ for it.
- If you decide to get a dyno tune locally, there is no guarantee that the tuner has any idea what he is doing or experience with the ft86. Also, a dyno tune alone is not ideal. After it has been tuned, it needs to be monitored what the ECU is learning and adjusted afterward, as mentioned previously. That leads us to...

Some arguments for canned tunes/road tuning:
- All FT86s come from the factory with a "canned" tune. They are not adjusting the cars individually before they leave the assembly line. Obviously! That's because a NA engine is not that complicated.
- In general, there is not that much to gain by dyno tuning an NA car. There are not that many parameters to adjust and most of them are no-brainers.
- Nobody will do "proper" dyno tuning for 500$ anyway due to time constraints/costs. If they were to dial it in perfectly, it would spend 2 days on the dyno and not 2 hours. Who will pay for that?
- Specifically for unlocked tunes, you can adjust them afterward yourself with the guidance of this very forum.

Just so you know where I'm coming from. Personally, I tune with RomRaider and flash with Tactrix. And I want to switch to EcuTek mainly because of interest and because I'd like to try it out. I would NEVER flash/let someone flash a locked tune to my ECU.

You were able to answer everything exactly! That was where my apprehension was coming from. So I think I'll be sticking with my OFT. However, would there still be value in at least booking a Dyno session to see a before and aftter of the OFT, and then maybe another run weeks later on for consistency check?

[steve99]

Bit more info to add to @Tor ,s very informative post

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106068


Most tuners will prefer ecutek or brzedit even NA as it allows them to lock tune and ecu to protect their work from copying. To tuners time is money , again they will prefer ecutek or brzedit edit for logging capabilities or rom support. But as above NA you can do the same job with any system ie oft tactrix brzedit or ecutek.

Just be aware of the locking of ecu with brzedit and ecutek, im helping a lot of people now with locked ecu who buy secondhand cars. Or want to return their car to stock before sale and have locked ecu.

A lot of people who get dyno tunes or go to tuners never log tune. They are ofen quite supprised to find that the tune knocks during highway driving or has smoothness issues in non full power runs. All dyno based tunes should be cgecked on road in variois conditions its difficult to simulate everything on dyno

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by Tor

Since the other posters don't answer your questions, I'll give it a go...



First of all, it's necessary to clear up the no. 1 misunderstanding when this topic comes up:
Speaking of a NA car, it doesn't matter diddly squat if the car is tuned with Ecutek's ProECU software, BRZEdit or RomRaider (forget OFT it's not a tuning device, it's a flashing device). How the tune, that is made in one of the above mentioned software, finds its way from a computer to the ECU doesn't matter (Ecutek Programming Kit, Tactrix, OFT, Kess etc.).

It's possible with all the above software to extract hp in undesirable ways. That may be e.g.: Too much timing, too lean.

In both cases, the car might run fine for a few minutes of hard driving. Afterward, when the engine internals heats up, the ECU will start to reduce ignition timing to prevent knock - causing a loss of performance.

So while it might look good on that one pull on the dyno, you may have significantly less power once driven on the road or especially a track.


A proper tune will take the previous mentioned into account. So a reliable tune will keep performing after several pulls. A dyno-hero-tune may make a (slightly) prettier graph.

The ECU is very effective in dealing with knock. So it would have to be a disastrous tune to give longevity issues though.

Then there is the issue that the ECU learns fuel trims after being driven for a while. A tune made in 2 hours on a dyno doesn't account for that. More on that below...


That's because there are no sales in that. Customers are drawn in with magical claims of 40% percent power increases from a header and a tune. It's magic!



Don't bother. You already have a flashing device (the OFT). RomRaider is free, and NA you don't have that many benefits from the extra features Ecutek will give you.

Some arguments for Ecutek though:
- Gimmicks like (proper) Flat Floor Shifting, rev match downshift, launch control etc.
- ECU Connect Bluetooth Interface (cool feature for logging and using an Apple/Android device for live logging) - but you already have the OFT which will do the same.
- Map switching if you plan to run different qualities of fuel 91/93.
- For advanced tuning extra tables where the tuner can program in special features. For a NA car not really necessary, and probably a lot of tuners won't use them.

Some arguments against Ecutek:
- First, if you get a remote tune - you WILL get a canned tune. That's the nature of remote tuning. So if the remote tune comes from Yummy tuning or Tablets Tuning, it's still a canned tune that in no way is tailored to your car. In both cases, it will need some dialing in. The remote tuner might offer to do a few revisions included in the price. Be aware that a few revisions might not be enough.


to my ECU.

What you call gimmicks are highly usable features. Launch control, traction control, flat foot shifting, I use regularly and find highly beneficial


Lets talk about your "can Tune" if you buy a tune from Delicious they send you a "Base Tune" that has been revised to the latest dialed in improvements from thousands of hours of tuning. That base tune will be a tune that comes from a car that is running the same parts as your car or as close to the combo they have on file. If you have a Ace header and a airaid intake with a invidia exhaust guess what that's a combo that has been done before so you start off with the latest revision of that setup and go from their.


In closing everyone has the right to choose their own path. what works for one might not for someone else. follow your own path after all it is your car..Tor has some good points some other people on here make good points but its your investment

[steve99]

The good thing about having several different competing tuning devices and system is you have a choice. It also keeps the cost down and the development going. I dont think ecutek would be offering the same level of development and cost savings for end users on this platform if tactrix oft and brzedit did not exist.

Basicly everyone is a winner as frs justin said pich the sysyem that suits your needs and budget and features you want. Were so lucky to have the different options

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Tor

Some arguments for canned tunes/road tuning:
- All FT86s come from the factory with a "canned" tune. They are not adjusting the cars individually before they leave the assembly line. Obviously! That's because a NA engine is not that complicated.
- In general, there is not that much to gain by dyno tuning an NA car. There are not that many parameters to adjust and most of them are no-brainers.
- Nobody will do "proper" dyno tuning for 500$ anyway due to time constraints/costs. If they were to dial it in perfectly, it would spend 2 days on the dyno and not 2 hours. Who will pay for that?

Exactly. I had a performance shop trying to convince me that a canned tune was not that good and I should go with them because they won recently a time attack event with an unrelated car. So what? My car is not a GT-R and they wanted to bill me 1500 euros just for a tune (no hardware changes!) for a 2-3 hours job maximum. This would be a roberry ..

[Tor]

Originally Posted by leevanf

You were able to answer everything exactly! That was where my apprehension was coming from. So I think I'll be sticking with my OFT. However, would there still be value in at least booking a Dyno session to see a before and aftter of the OFT, and then maybe another run weeks later on for consistency check?

From a performance standpoint, no. For your personal satisfaction of having the before/after graphs, yes. The dyno run weeks later you can scrap completely, that is totally unnecessary and can be done with a road log. You would want to check that AFR didn't change significantly due to fuel trims and that's it.

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

What you call gimmicks are highly usable features. Launch control, traction control, flat foot shifting, I use regularly and find highly beneficial

Yes, I use OFT's implementation of FFS too with a delta of 1500 rpm, i.e. it only works for me when shifting at redline and it has some undesireable side effects in other situations. Hence I wrote that Ecutek has done it properly. Still these are extra gimmicks, in the sense that they don't have anything to do with the engine running properly or not. Whether anyone wants to pay extra $ for these features is another question (personally, I'd might).

Lets talk about your "can Tune" if you buy a tune from Delicious they send you a "Base Tune"

Exactly, a canned tune that needs dialing in. And there is enough variation between engines/sensors that one guy will come out with completely different fuel trims than the other, even with the same mods.

That leaves the tuner two options:
- Make a less aggressive tune that will account for one guy running leaner than the other.
- Offer to do several revisions for free, with potentially a lot of work for the tuner.

that has been revised to the latest dialed in improvements from thousands of hours of tuning. That base tune will be a tune that comes from a car that is running the same parts as your car or as close to the combo they have on file. If you have a Ace header and a airaid intake with a invidia exhaust guess what that's a combo that has been done before so you start off with the latest revision of that setup and go from their.

Yes, the factory canned tune is also dialed in to "perfection" to the exact same "mods" (i.e. stock!) and you see the variation these car runs.

As mentioned in the previous post, most NA stuff can be easily done with road tuning, because they are no-brainers. Get the fueling right, increase timing to knock limits. You don't really need a dyno for that. In fact, I would claim that getting the fueling right can be done a lot better with road logs.

The only thing you can't do very well NA on the road accurately is stuff where option a, b, c, d etc. makes more power. Cam timing is one of those things, injector firing angles etc. But this is stuff that takes days to dial in perfectly, so it won't be done with dyno tuning either. The dyno tuner would start out with some known "good values" (i.e. a canned tune as well).

For Ace headers, I'm sure there are pro tuners that spent a lot of time dialing in the cams. Ptuning for their header as well. OFT for the OFT header.

I don't see anyone offering cam timings specifically for JDL or Tomei headers, as the @leevanf specifically inquired about. So in the end, even from the reputable tuners, he will end up with "generic UEL" cam timings.

My advice to you @leevanf would, by the way, be to get the OFT header if you stick with the OFT and want to get an UEL header. That would save some headache in that regard and from personal experience with tuning some else's car, it seems to produce quite good power actually. My adjustment of his tune "won" a small dyno day with 6 other cars.

Again personally, I have the Gruppe-S header, so I have no investment in OFT what so ever.

In closing everyone has the right to choose their own path. what works for one might not for someone else. follow your own path after all it is your car..Tor has some good points some other people on here make good points but its your investment

Yes, obviously everyone should make their own informed decisions. For newcomers, it not being made easier that some people (not referring to you specifically) are preaching their solution or tuner like it's religion. If they do, it would be nice with some data logs to back up their claims.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by leevanf

The reason i ask is because i am going to be using stage 1 oft, but when the jdl/tomei uel arrives, thinking if i should sell the oft, and let an ECUtek tune take over?

OFT stage 1 is not that good in comparison with other stage 1 tunes. I used it for a short period of time and I was not satisfied. There is even a post here that the manufacturer posted a dyno of a different car with higher gains (non-stock with aftermarket header) and then said that he made a mistake in the uploaded picture. However, he never changed the dyno picture of the original post. You could find the mistake only if you were reading several pages of comments.

Unfotunately, it is also a way to make yourself "reputable".

[steve99]

What you need to find is a reliable tuner, rarther than concerning yourself with the tune system used to flash the tune to ecu.

[Tor]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

OFT stage 1 is not that good in comparison with other stage 1 tunes. I used it for a short period of time and I was not satisfied. There is even a post here that the manufacturer posted a dyno of a different car with higher gains (non-stock with aftermarket header) and then said that he made a mistake in the uploaded picture. However, he never changed the dyno picture of the original post. You could find the mistake only if you were reading several pages of comments.

Unfotunately, it is also a way to make yourself "reputable".

What were you dissatisfied about?

The OTS tunes are just what they claim to be: "off the shelf". And they are free of charge downloadable from the internet. They are safe enough to be used "as is" or they can be used as a base tune to further improve them.

If you had wanted further dial in, you could have paid Shiv for remote tuning. Or done it yourself.

Or alternatively the middle way: You can get much improved tunes for a minimal fee from www.wayneroms.com , complete with instructions how to dial them in perfectly.

Or 4th find someone on this forum who will do it for you, either for the hobby or for a fee as well.

There are so many options with open source. With a locked tune, you only have ONE option.

What Steve just wrote. You will only get as good of a tune as the capability and time spend from your tuner/yourself - regardless of the system used.