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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 10-15-2020, 07:08 PM   #15
TheFugitiveMind
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I work for NASA National and can help with rules! Let me know!
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Old 10-15-2020, 11:32 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Hades View Post

Also, does anybody know if toe arms/endlinks cause a point hit? I think swapping out LCAs are a no-no, which is unfortunate, but I'm wondering what else can be swapped out in the suspension without taking point hits since we need more adjustability from factory.
If you plan to take some points, I took kind of hybrid approach where I put sphericals in the two places where they need it the most, and utilize cheaper, but good parts elsewhere to give nice adjustment. I don't take any points for them, but even if I did, I still would do exactly what I've done here, as it's a great balance of reliability, and performance where you need it most, IMO.

The only sphericals I use in the front control arm are the big front lower that locates the arm and deflects the most under load. The other is OE. It adds a ton of feel and precision to the steering.

For the rear, I have SPC rear lower control arms, and SPC toe links (with lockout plates), and STI trailing arms (with sealed OE bearing), and they work beautifully, hold alignment like a beast, and are cheap if you need to replace them. I recently had somebody hit my rear wheel in the rain and it broke my toe link. $100 on amazon next day delivery.
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Old 10-16-2020, 07:54 AM   #17
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I work for NASA National and can help with rules! Let me know!
Can you remove the A-Arm Penalty for FRS/BRZs or at least make the deduction PER Axle.

-0.7 is a massive hit to take.
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:54 AM   #18
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Can you remove the A-Arm Penalty for FRS/BRZs or at least make the deduction PER Axle.

-0.7 is a massive hit to take.

Wait a minute, the FRS takes an A-arm penalty? Why? It has Mcpherson strut front, and multi-link rear (not A-Arm). And the reality is virtually every car these days is a trailing/multi-link rear, so the only advantage (if you can even call it that) is if you have A-arm front suspension, which is indeed more rare.

A-Arm front is the only real advantage over Mcpherson, because typically you can fit more tire/wheel, and you gain camber through motion range....the rear is no advantage.

That's a f-ing ridiculous rule, it literally makes zero sense if I am understanding that correctly....
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Old 10-16-2020, 09:47 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by prandelia View Post
Wait a minute, the FRS takes an A-arm penalty? Why? It has Mcpherson strut front, and multi-link rear (not A-Arm). And the reality is virtually every car these days is a trailing/multi-link rear, so the only advantage (if you can even call it that) is if you have A-arm front suspension, which is indeed more rare.

A-Arm front is the only real advantage over Mcpherson, because typically you can fit more tire/wheel, and you gain camber through motion range....the rear is no advantage.

That's a f-ing ridiculous rule, it literally makes zero sense if I am understanding that correctly....
You would be correct, however it's defined by NASA as a "Wishbone-Type" rear end because of the upper control arm

Quote:
Suspension design utilizing upper “A-arm” or “wishbone” type control arms (front or rear) -0.7
Thus, we have to take the penalty. It's been pretty well discussed. Even the BMW 128i which is CLEARLY multi-link has to take the penalty because the upper control arms form a "wishbone"

Pretty much the only car that doesn't get hit is the E36. Yet, an S2000 takes the same penalty and has A-Arm up front, so they benefit.
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:06 PM   #20
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You would be correct, however it's defined by NASA as a "Wishbone-Type" rear end because of the upper control arm



Thus, we have to take the penalty. It's been pretty well discussed. Even the BMW 128i which is CLEARLY multi-link has to take the penalty because the upper control arms form a "wishbone"

Pretty much the only car that doesn't get hit is the E36. Yet, an S2000 takes the same penalty and has A-Arm up front, so they benefit.
That's retarded.

Not to get off topic, but you should come run a weekend with GLTC next season.
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Old 10-19-2020, 12:07 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by M0nk3y View Post
You would be correct, however it's defined by NASA as a "Wishbone-Type" rear end because of the upper control arm



Thus, we have to take the penalty. It's been pretty well discussed. Even the BMW 128i which is CLEARLY multi-link has to take the penalty because the upper control arms form a "wishbone"

Pretty much the only car that doesn't get hit is the E36. Yet, an S2000 takes the same penalty and has A-Arm up front, so they benefit.

It looks like youre in Ohio. Have you spoken to your ST group leader there? or have you brought it up with the Greg that National ST director?

I handle all of the Marketing and Contingencies for everyone so I don't have too much influence on rules, but I can definitely help point in the right direction
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Old 10-21-2020, 08:25 AM   #22
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That's retarded.

Not to get off topic, but you should come run a weekend with GLTC next season.
Don't think you'll see my car with the GLTC Crowd. Getting my butt kicked in whatever time attack class it falls in is more likely the end result.

Still a summer car for me/no cage or anything

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Originally Posted by TheFugitiveMind View Post
It looks like youre in Ohio. Have you spoken to your ST group leader there? or have you brought it up with the Greg that National ST director?

I handle all of the Marketing and Contingencies for everyone so I don't have too much influence on rules, but I can definitely help point in the right direction
I have not, I initially built the car to fit autocross rules with the intent to move on over. However seeing how some of my upgrades may throw me out of even doing an event it's tough to start yelling or complaining to anyone when it was my own doing.

Not looking for ME classing, just trying to understand the intent at why some point penalties are there
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Old 11-02-2020, 10:39 PM   #23
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Prandelia,
Where did you get the spherical for the front lower control arm (the big one)?

Thanks. Great info!

[QUOTE=prandelia;3376188]
The only sphericals I use in the front control arm are the big front lower that locates the arm and deflects the most under load. The other is OE. It adds a ton of feel and precision to the steering.
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Old 09-19-2023, 09:36 AM   #24
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Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this thread was super helpful. I was reading the rules about "wishbone" and thought, surely not. But yup... about as silly as bigger brakes being a penalty when you have to run street tires.

Anyway I'm thinking of getting into NASA TT5.
Any idea what a bolt on (intake, EL headers, catback, tune, 93octane) 2014 will make for average hp under the rules? Roughly?

Also, do we have a preferred tire? Or at least a class (+1.6 or +1.0 category).

Thanks!
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Old 09-19-2023, 12:17 PM   #25
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NASA AirTable will be a good way to get an idea, for some reason (I assume sponsor agreements) they don't list what tire brand you chose on on the sheet.

https://airtable.com/appERehieevbzLk...gWtC3AQ0QAJPI0

You'll likely end up in the mid 170s average WHP wise. The PP Brembos are your no-points BBK since they were available from the factory.

Tire will probably lead to arguments, but the fastest laps in ST5 and TT5 at Nationals were done on an RC1. Taking the points for an A052/CRS/etc might be worth it but why bother given Maxxis contingency.

I am curious what rules will change for 2024, I pitted with Greg earlier this year for a two day event and asked him about some stuff. He sold his race setup off and was retiring from his real job to be a dive instructor, so he will be based out of Florida instead of living in Arizona and mostly sticking to SoCal events.
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Old 09-19-2023, 02:29 PM   #26
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Quote:
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Any idea what a bolt on (intake, EL headers, catback, tune, 93octane) 2014 will make for average hp under the rules? Roughly?

Also, do we have a preferred tire? Or at least a class (+1.6 or +1.0 category).
My old car with similar setup made 192 peak whp and a 181 average on a 93 tune.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LF_...ujfFPvy7A/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dB4...d3Svsgw0J/view

I know there has been success with the Maxxis tires, but I still lean towards the Hoosier being the better choice although it can be track dependent.
All of the current Texas Region track records to my knowledge are on R7's, I can confirm the Eagles Canyon record was since it was my car
Grassroots motorsport Tire Table is probably the best place to decide what tire you might want in the 1.0-1.6 categories: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...-buyers-guide/

The airtable is a great place to pickup trends on what people are taking on points. BUT, take power numbers with a little grain of salt as some cars may be flat tuned, have engine swaps, different fuel, etc and those things arent obvious on the forms.

You can get a ballpark, but at the end of the day you own dyno is going to determine your final weight and points.

TT5 in TX region is a great place right now though, LOTS of opportunity to win tires with the number of participants right now.
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Old 09-19-2023, 02:41 PM   #27
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Hehe, see, Hoosier vs Maxxis is region and car dependent. I mostly think they work for me since I have the K24 power.

I've set five NASA AZ TT5 records on the RC1, as well as another two NASA TT5 SoCal records on them.

TT5 is where it is at.
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Old 10-12-2023, 09:27 AM   #28
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Engine swaps ruin NASA and SCCA....Change my mind
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