NASA TT5/ST5 setup

[Hades]

I see most are running wings with a lower average whp number. I wonder if shooting for a higher average whp and running without the aero would be better (due to the point disadvantage). ~190whp average should be doable with long tube headers + e85.

Has anybody tested the setups or have any insight here?



Also, does anybody know if toe arms/endlinks cause a point hit? I think swapping out LCAs are a no-no, which is unfortunate, but I'm wondering what else can be swapped out in the suspension without taking point hits since we need more adjustability from factory.


EDIT: Actually, after doing some quick calculating I was a little off the mark... it seems we would need ~2750 min comp weight to max out p/w with 190 avg. whp. Probably not going to happen without more serious gutting. I wonder if somebody could get a higher average whp with ace headers or something

[CSG Mike]

It'll depend on the venue and driver skill/balls!

[M0nk3y]

What Mike said.

Personally, for me, tracks like NCM, Mid-Ohio, Pitt Race all benefit from having a rear wing. I saw substantial time drop from no-wing to wing testing. Rear end stability being the biggest net benefit.

Gingerman on the other hand is kind of meh, everything is "low speed" with the exception of 8/9

You take a -0.5 point hit for "Replace, modify, or remove control arms, camber arms/links, toe arms/links"

On top of that, if you make any of those spherical it's another -0.2 hit.

I think you're missing out on A-Arm/Wishbone control arm penalty which all FRS/BRZs need to take a hit on which is -0.7 (and very stupid hit if I may add)

So, at 2850 comp weight (with driver) you're AVG HP would be 199. If you add a rear wing, it's 193

For 6 avg hp, I think it's very much worth it. For what it's worth, a lot of guys around here are ditching their front splitters and just running with a rear wing.

https://form.jotform.com/drivenasa/s...ification-form

[prandelia]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

What Mike said.

Personally, for me, tracks like NCM, Mid-Ohio, Pitt Race all benefit from having a rear wing. I saw substantial time drop from no-wing to wing testing. Rear end stability being the biggest net benefit.

Gingerman on the other hand is kind of meh, everything is "low speed" with the exception of 8/9

You take a -0.5 point hit for "Replace, modify, or remove control arms, camber arms/links, toe arms/links"

On top of that, if you make any of those spherical it's another -0.2 hit.

I think you're missing out on A-Arm/Wishbone control arm penalty which all FRS/BRZs need to take a hit on which is -0.7 (and very stupid hit if I may add)

So, at 2850 comp weight (with driver) you're AVG HP would be 199. If you add a rear wing, it's 193

For 6 avg hp, I think it's very much worth it. For what it's worth, a lot of guys around here are ditching their front splitters and just running with a rear wing.

https://form.jotform.com/drivenasa/s...ification-form

Totally agree. Can't imagine racing at any of these without one.

My question is, who is making 199 avg. hp, and if so, how?

I'm at 200whp now with E85, ACE350, TRD intake, 3"exhaust, Toda big throttle body. It's a nice curve, but a long way from 199 avg. hp.
I ordered a JUN GT surge tank (intake manifold) and will post up the dyno gains after I get it.

[Hades]

Thanks monkey & Mike. Yea, I know about that dumb a arm penalty (who does that not apply to even? E36...?).


I also didn't realize when I made the post the wing hit only applies to TT6. So, we just can't take the BTM aero bonus if we run a wing. Makes sense ditching the splitter since that is a -0.5 penalty, I will have to research that some more. That doesn't unbalance the car too much? From what I understand, our cars' aero is very neutral from factory.

[Hades]

Nice dyno prandelia! That looks almost 195 whp avg. just eyeballing it. Have you done the calculations for that?

EDIT: did a very rough guestimate (eyeballing the points) and it comes out to ~191 whp.

[prandelia]

Originally Posted by Hades

Nice dyno prandelia! That looks almost 195 whp avg. just eyeballing it. Have you done the calculations for that?

I haven't yet actually, because we are running peak hp in GLTC, but my focus was always on fattening up the powerband, and not worrying about the peak as much. I'll calculate it once I get ready to put the new manifold on a dyno tune it.

The problem is this car falls on it's face at 7200 RPM. The manifold I bought is shown to increase power, up to 8K !

[CrowsFeast]

That's quite the torque... line? lol

[prandelia]

Originally Posted by Hades

Thanks monkey & Mike. Yea, I know about that dumb a arm penalty (who does that not apply to even? E36...?).


I also didn't realize when I made the post the wing hit only applies to TT6. So, we just can't take the BTM aero bonus if we run a wing. Makes sense ditching the splitter since that is a -0.5 penalty, I will have to research that some more. That doesn't unbalance the car too much? From what I understand, our cars' aero is very neutral from factory.

I run no splitter, and a rear wing, for the same reason, to avoid modifier weight. The balance is phenomenal, and easy to tailor to your preference using alignment and rake. A bit more rear spring rate never hurts these cars either.

[Takumi788]

I am not part of this TT5/St5 world but this idea has merit. Especially in wheel to wheel. There is currently a competitor in GLTC with this same idea. His idea is that it is easier to pass on the straights than the corners, so he sides with power over aero. In doing this he slightly holds ppl up in the corners but powers away in the straights. However his car is K powered. There is more potential to make power with a K than an FA20 so the results are better in his case. But if you can figure out a strong FA20 setup and trade aero points for power points, I think you may have something.

[prandelia]

Originally Posted by Takumi788

I am not part of this TT5/St5 world but this idea has merit. Especially in wheel to wheel. There is currently a competitor in GLTC with this same idea. His idea is that it is easier to pass on the straights than the corners, so he sides with power over aero. In doing this he slightly holds ppl up in the corners but powers away in the straights. However his car is K powered. There is more potential to make power with a K than an FA20 so the results are better in his case. But if you can figure out a strong FA20 setup and trade aero points for power points, I think you may have something.

Sometimes. My teammates/buddies are who basically brought the K24 miata to racing (Winning Formula), Aaron Leichty, Rob, and Emile....my car is also prepped at Winning Formula. I have a miata too, but wanted to keep it as our "enduro" car for WRL, and wanted to build something different and to prove the FA20 is perfectly competitive in this type of class (or any NASA class), which it is. People shit on this motor, unrightfully so. GLTC is still shocked at how fast my car is, most people almost can't believe it. It's not magic, it just takes good preparation.

Sure, you can run less aero and build a straight-line bullet and it may work a a track like Road America, but for most tracks, the cars that are aero prepared and well balanced are the best, which is what we all race, and why at almost every race the front runners in the top 10 are all aero prepared cars. Sure, you will have a well driven non-aero car slide in from time to time, but it just doesn't hold up over the coarse a season.

I have to concede, K24's have the edge because light cars can de-tune from ~220hp, and run a flat 180-200hp powerband for a few thousand RPM, so when we are both on a slow 3rd gear corner, they are making all 180-200hp at 5500 RPM, and I am nowhere near my peak 200hp at the same relative RPM. That's the advantage. They have to carry a little more weight, but it's still an advantage, not huge, but just enough that they can squirt off a corner here and there and then I'll never get back around them. I certainly don't out-drag race anybody in the top-10 in GLTC. I have to do it in quali and in the corners. This is typically the same for any series the FRS/BRZ runs in, whether it's GLTC, NASA, SCCA, etc. etc.

If I can make enough power with this manifold, between that bit of detune, and the additional 6% of torque/hp that 4.556 gearing will put the ground, it should be enough to bridge that gap that exists between my FA20 and the K24 and other detuned motors like S54, S52, etc. etc.

There are plenty of ways to skin a cat, but yeah, there is no denying the ability and ease of using a K24. That said, I'm sticking with the FA20.

[M0nk3y]

Also for GTLC rules, see the hidden message that favors K24 builds over anything else...

[prandelia]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

Also for GTLC rules, see the hidden message that favors K24 builds over anything else...

LOL, exactly! Actually, my K24 guys took their modifiers like good boys, but there were a lot of people playing games with their detunes/powerbands and not taking the modifier like they should have all season.

I was not happy about that when I found out....nobody will be getting away with that BS this year....

[Hades]

I have to concede, K24's have the edge because light cars can de-tune from ~220hp, and run a flat 180-200hp powerband for a few thousand RPM, so when we are both on a slow 3rd gear corner, they are making all 180-200hp at 5500 RPM, and I am nowhere near my peak 200hp at the same relative RPM. That's the advantage. They have to carry a little more weight, but it's still an advantage, not huge, but just enough that they can squirt off a corner here and there and then I'll never get back around them. I certainly don't out-drag race anybody in the top-10 in GLTC. I have to do it in quali and in the corners. This is typically the same for any series the FRS/BRZ runs in, whether it's GLTC, NASA, SCCA, etc. etc.

I can see why you run the ACE