EcuTek,Cobb, EcuEdit, tuners - how come it's legal?

[vgi]

Originally Posted by skye67

We're basically talking about hacking and this is something I know a thing or two about. Apple tried to get it illegal 2 jailbreak the iPhone. Sony tried to make it illegal to hack the PlayStation. And I understand General Motors was trying to make it illegal to hack their ECU. But the courts have always upheld that the owner can do whatever they want to something they own. Now the EPA is a different story.

it wasn't only GM, there were a few companies in that auto alliance group.

the point i was making is - this law that allows hacking ecu for autos goes in effect in Oct 2016.

btw, since you say "the owner can do whatever they want to something they own" would you say that owners should be able to modify the tunes they buy from tuners? and since "this is something you know a thing or two about" - would you pls post a howto guide to bypass that lock?

[skye67]

Originally Posted by vgi

btw, since you say "the owner can do whatever they want to something they own" would you say that owners should be able to modify the tunes they buy from tuners? and since "this is something you know a thing or two about" - would you pls post a howto guide to bypass that lock?

Yes to your first question. And in fact, some tuners will even help you with that. But that would be on you to any changes you make to the tune.
No, to your second question. And in referring to what I know about hacking your phone, computer or smart TV, your Playstation or Xbox. I have not even looked into hacking/tuning cars because somebody's already done it. The work Shiv put in to OFT has provided me with more than enough of a template to get started with modifying my tunes from him.

[vgi]

Originally Posted by skye67

Yes to your first question. And in fact, some tuners will even help you with that. But that would be on you to any changes you make to the tune.
No, to your second question. And in referring to what I know about hacking your phone, computer or smart TV, your Playstation or Xbox. I have not even looked into hacking/tuning cars because somebody's already done it. The work Shiv put in to OFT has provided me with more than enough of a template to get started with modifying my tunes from him.

ah, sure. but then hacking of phone, computer or smart TV has also been done, just google it and follow someone else's howto/tools/builds, no need to hack (unless you call 'hacking' following someone else's instructions or using found on web tools/builds). or you can pay someone money to unlock/jailbreak it, which is pretty much the same as you paying money for OFT. not sure why you bothered then.

and fyi, i was referring to locked tunes (see the thread title)

[steve99]

Im actually pretty happy we have such a choice with this particular vehicle

we have a selection of opensource non -locking and non-opensource locking tuning options, which has actually reduced the price of getting a "tune" in my country quite substantially due to healthy competition.

Agree the action of accessing the ecu by by-passing the seed/key lock appears to be technically illegal.

The then subsequent action of altering the manufacturers code/tables and reusing it and on selling for a profit also appears to be illegal.

most tuners do state clearly that tunes are for "offroad use only" unless they are approved for emissions purposes, which probably satisfy the EPA emissions people, so that just leaves the manufactures who sell lots of cars to enthusiasts so they probably dont want to rock the boat.

The action of completely locking people out of the ecu also seems suspect. I understand tuners need to protect their work.

Unfortunatly the way the seed/key access to ecu works you either get full read/write access or no access at all.

It would be much better if the tune systems just READ locked, but anyone could WRITE over the tune with a stock or another tune. this way the tuners work would be protected but the end user would not be locked out as they could always WRITE over the current tune without access the READ it.

Unfortunatly this seems to be a limitation of the ecu mirco-controller unit, rarther than the tune system creators or tuners being deliberately nasty.

All the tune systems provide a method to revert ecu back to stock and unlocked state but you need to use the tune system that locked the ecu, and their is no easy way to tell which system locked the ECU, you just have to try them all, which is a giant pain in the ar$e when you come across a locked ecu. As you need to have access to all the tune system software and hardware in order to unlock the ecu easily via the obd port.

you can resort to swaping out the ecu for a replacement or possibly pulling the ECU and soldering a serial interface FTDI and access the boot mode of the mirco-controller directly but this has its own issues as it erases both the "tune" and the user boot area of the micro-controller and as yet no one in the opensource area has cracked the access to the boot area of the ecu so you cannot re-write it to get the ecu functional again with this ECU and is quite time consuming.

[vgi]

Originally Posted by steve99

.
I understand tuners need to protect their work.

let's say subaru made brz (for the appeal factor let's say it has 300hp and the same price) with all custom connections and bolts heads that every, even minor work, would require special tools which makes you go to subaru dealership every time you want to change oil, put winter tires, etc. would you understand that?

there is knowledge tuners gained which required certain amount of time spent on tuning the car(s). but so do many other professional people that spend years in schools or gaining hands on experience, eg construction pros. would you like them to have ability to 'lock' their work performed on your house?

imo if ability to lock the tune is not available to tuners they would not have lost any sales.

[cjd]

The hardware example isn't realistic. I couldn't buy one super upgraded car and all my friends stop over and copy it to their car, free of charge. Even with standard parts is just not possible.

It is possible with software, and that's why locks are put in place. I'm torn, both agreeing and not with the practice, but I'm not going to complain if someone does.

I don't like that some tuning systems leave mark even when the tune is gone far more that I am worried about tuners protecting their work.

[vgi]

Originally Posted by cjd

The hardware example isn't realistic. I couldn't buy one super upgraded car and all my friends stop over and copy it to their car, free of charge. Even with standard parts is just not possible.

It is possible with software.

1. tuners do NOT create any software, they do not own any IP of the tune, this software was written by manufacturers and then altered by tuning program developers, eg EcuTek (again, illegally unless they got it from manufacturers and also got permission to alter it). tuners just modify static data part of that software, no logical. isn't it the same as any auto-shop (or put any blue color workers in here) who don't create any parts and/or tools but do know how to use them efficiently. more on that below

2. "I couldn't buy one super upgraded car and all my friends stop over and copy it to their car, free of charge. Even with standard parts is just not possible." - well that's a perfect example which support my view:

- you can't just copy the tunes free of charge. you need a flashing software and license (similar to paying for parts in your example).

- say you dropped your car to a performance shop and tell them you want a 12 seconds quarter mile. they do a great work spending bunch of time on architecting the whole thing, picking all the right parts, and putting all back together with best hardware (down to bands rather than zip ties). now you get your car back and your friends can copy the exactly the same setup and also see how it was installed. now they only have to pay for the same parts if they do the work themselves.

- finally, you can't just blindly copy the tunes from car to car period. even if you have 2 bare bone stock cars the same tune may not run identically on those two cars. now if you also take in consideration different fuel, different altitude, different mods, etc. then you'll realize that custom tuning is pretty much the way to go, and that's how tuners make their money. otherwise everyone would be running on shiv's opened tunes.

[xwd]

Originally Posted by vgi

1. tuners do NOT create any software, they do not own any IP of the tune, this software was written by manufacturers and then altered by tuning program developers, eg EcuTek (again, illegally unless they got it from manufacturers and also got permission to alter it). tuners just modify static data part of that software, no logical. isn't it the same as any auto-shop (or put any blue color workers in here) who don't create any parts and/or tools but do know how to use them efficiently. more on that below

2. "I couldn't buy one super upgraded car and all my friends stop over and copy it to their car, free of charge. Even with standard parts is just not possible." - well that's a perfect example which support my view:

- you can't just copy the tunes free of charge. you need a flashing software and license (similar to paying for parts in your example).

- say you dropped your car to a performance shop and tell them you want a 12 seconds quarter mile. they do a great work spending bunch of time on architecting the whole thing, picking all the right parts, and putting all back together with best hardware (down to bands rather than zip ties). now you get your car back and your friends can copy the exactly the same setup and also see how it was installed. now they only have to pay for the same parts if they do the work themselves.

- finally, you can't just blindly copy the tunes from car to car period. even if you have 2 bare bone stock cars the same tune may not run identically on those two cars. now if you also take in consideration different fuel, different altitude, different mods, etc. then you'll realize that custom tuning is pretty much the way to go, and that's how tuners make their money. otherwise everyone would be running on shiv's opened tunes.

There are tuners who modify things enough that I would consider similar to IP. There are algorithms you can implement with the more advanced Ecutek software to build new functionality into the ECU for things like traction control. Tuners who are doing more advanced things or have some specific methods they use to tune cars should be able to protect those. However, they are also open to someone cracking their tunes if they so choose, and I'm not sure they would have much recourse.

I have no doubt there are portions of the reverse engineering process that violate the DMCA. I know the person who did the reverse engineering for Cobb on the original WRX ECUs back in the day, it was basically a buffer overflow and code insertion that allowed it.

IMHO automakers thus far have considered the performance segment small enough potatoes to not really care much about it. Not sure if it will continue that way or not.

[vgi]

Originally Posted by xwd

Not sure if it will continue that way or not.

it's a question if there will be much to tune on electric cars

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by vgi

1. tuners do NOT create any software, they do not own any IP of the tune, this software was written by manufacturers and then altered by tuning program developers, eg EcuTek (again, illegally unless they got it from manufacturers and also got permission to alter it). tuners just modify static data part of that software, no logical.

Fair point, but the creation/modification of that static data is exactly what their livelihood depends on. I can understand the desire to protect their livelihood.

Just because it's not wise to directly copy a bespoke tune from one car to the next doesn't mean people won't do it and just live with something less than optimized. How many OFTs have been sold to twins owners? And how many of them went to a dyno to further dial in that tune? There's a very large number of people happy to get most of the available power rather than all of it.

And with some of the RaceROM features in EcuTek you actually are paying for their own IP.

[steve99]

I think with software it is the ease with which it can be copied and replicated and distributed, as oposed to hardware like for example anew set of heads, while i can buy a set measure it up look at whats been done it its not eeasy to replicate manufacture and distribute, with apiece of software that can be done at virtually zero cost.