Stunt driving in Ontario crackdown

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by wparsons

This is 100% the reason you got the end result that you did. Don't ever argue with the cop, or correct them, at the scene. All you do is piss them off, and end up with more tickets thrown at you.

I know that well and I wouldn't argue or be abrasive. But when I heard "stunt driving" the severity of the allegation made me want to question it immediately . The cop happened to be an area inspector I found out today and a staff sergeant so I think he was really pissed that someone would have the audacity to take off like that in his view. When I commented that Mustangs and Camaros do that all the time without being deliberate, he commented that he sees it all the time too when he's off duty. Anyway I was unaware he was watching and either way there's a difference between accelerating with a small amount of slip on a brisk fall day on summer tires and doing a drift or deliberate sustained act around a turn. When we were done he said to me, "Don't worry, I don't think its all over for you". Almost sounded like he didn't think the charges would stick either. I can't think of how it can be reduced either since its not a speeding ticket. When you accelerate hard with a 300 HP FR-S the ass sometimes kicks, but it is quite benign due to traction control. Either way, I did not drift round the corner, I just sped off after completing the turn with the huge 209 ft/lb peak torque my car produces and it took a second for the tires to settle. Been doing a ton of research and this is a really difficult case for prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt without a clear video showing me performing the alleged act. Speeding might be a plea down to 49 (no longer stunt driving) with a smaller fine and demerits, unless its crazy 70+ over. This can't really be reduced to anything, especially when the allegation is shaky to begin with, so either there's clear proof or there isn't.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by wbradley

I know that well and I wouldn't argue or be abrasive. But when I heard "stunt driving" the severity of the allegation made me want to question it immediately . The cop happened to be an area inspector I found out today and a staff sergeant so I think he was really pissed that someone would have the audacity to take off like that in his view. When I commented that Mustangs and Camaros do that all the time without being deliberate, he commented that he sees it all the time too when he's off duty. Anyway I was unaware he was watching and either way there's a difference between accelerating with a small amount of slip on a brisk fall day on summer tires and doing a drift or deliberate sustained act around a turn. When we were done he said to me, "Don't worry, I don't think its all over for you". Almost sounded like he didn't think the charges would stick either. I can't think of how it can be reduced either since its not a speeding ticket. When you accelerate hard with a 300 HP FR-S the ass sometimes kicks, but it is quite benign due to traction control. Either way, I did not drift round the corner, I just sped off after completing the turn with the huge 209 ft/lb peak torque my car produces and it took a second for the tires to settle. Been doing a ton of research and this is a really difficult case for prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt without a clear video showing me performing the alleged act. Speeding might be a plea down to 49 (no longer stunt driving) with a smaller fine and demerits, unless its crazy 70+ over. This can't really be reduced to anything, especially when the allegation is shaky to begin with, so either there's clear proof or there isn't.

OH DUDE! I hope that in hindsight you see that you said all the wrong things!

[2020BRZtS]

I don't live in Canada but my son was pulled over a couple months ago. He pled guilty, paid the fine, and got on with his life. He received a phone call from the court suggesting he change his plea and spend an hour at the courthouse. He did, the cop didn't show, and his case was dropped. Full refund, no blemishes on his license. At 19, it would have killed his insurance.

I wish you the same good luck he had.

You could say you sneezed while you shifted and your foot hit the gas too hard.

[wbradley]

Incidentally I can see how the cop could think it might have been a deliberate attempt to drift. Except I never drifted. Perhaps the modified car induced a bias that he has.

First, I took the left turn fairly quick giving that impression, but that was in order to make the green light. My car is more capable of sharp cornering than a police cruiser and perfectly safe.

Then, momentary wheel spin when I straightened out from the turn. But that was me with a supercharged car accelerating to highway speed. I didnt know or expect any loss of traction and it wasn't deliberate at all. Maybe just a random incident, maybe cooler temperature or gravel on the road. I misjudged slightly so traction broke. Not the same as "performing a stunt".

To the cop, any car that is capable of cornering sharply, especially modified, might be doing stunts when it's just the athleticism of the car. And occasionally athletes misstep, unintentionally.

It could be taken as a deliberate quick corner followed by throttle in order to keep spinning except I didnt and couldnt keep spinning, the accidental and unexpected wheelspin was only a second anyway due to stability control. It happened, he saw it and saw an opportunity.
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[RFB]

Originally Posted by wparsons

You do realize the federal government doesn't control provincial traffic offences at all, right? The stunt driving law is a provincial law, not federal.

Absolutely. But the feds knew the coming chaos.
There was a covid meeting with the Police chiefs, getting their crisis marching orders . They were given a heads up on semi-auto firearms confiscation and loss of federal support payments as well .

The obvious solution - fill the coffers the easy way (as usual) - more provincial offence fines. The tail light chasers go on blitzes as political reaction, when cash is required and seasonally.

ALSO - The chiefs who own guns got a chance to sell them off !

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by RFB

Absolutely. But the feds knew the coming chaos.
There was a covid meeting with the Police chiefs, getting their crisis marching orders . They were given a heads up on semi-auto firearms confiscation and loss of federal support payments as well .

The obvious solution - fill the coffers the easy way (as usual) - more provincial offence fines. The tail light chasers go on blitzes as political reaction, when cash is required and seasonally.

ALSO - The chiefs who own guns got a chance to sell them off !

In my case it's the towing contractors making the money, for now anyway. Perhaps they pay a percentage of their revenue to the police.
And I am sure the revenue base from traffic violations is down due to reduced traffic. Not so sure cops are literally out for money, it just so happens that on any given day a police dept brings in substantial amounts, justified in that they are maintaining law and order.

[Dadhawk]

So, in this case, what the Cop saw was a car speeding up to make a light, making a hard turn with a potential loss of control, and then speeding at 30KPH over the speed limit (which I imagine is a good % over the limit) and then when stopped gives him grief about technically not breaking a law.

OK, it may not have been "stunt driving" but there's nothing in this description that says the Cop was "out to get you" either. Where in all this were you not breaking at least one law?

[anodic]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

So, in this case, what the Cop saw was a car speeding up to make a light, making a hard turn with a potential loss of control, and then speeding at 30KPH over the speed limit (which I imagine is a good % over the limit) and then when stopped gives him grief about technically not breaking a law.

OK, it may not have been "stunt driving" but there's nothing in this description that says the Cop was "out to get you" either. Where in all this were you not breaking at least one law?

It's the typical sob story of the 16-26 year old male, who believes the world is out to get him, it's just that this time it's an older fellow who admitted to driving aggressively, breaking a couple of laws, and then talking back when it came time to pay the piper.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by RFB

Absolutely. But the feds knew the coming chaos.
There was a covid meeting with the Police chiefs, getting their crisis marching orders . They were given a heads up on semi-auto firearms confiscation and loss of federal support payments as well .

The obvious solution - fill the coffers the easy way (as usual) - more provincial offence fines. The tail light chasers go on blitzes as political reaction, when cash is required and seasonally.

ALSO - The chiefs who own guns got a chance to sell them off !

Ya sure it is all a conspiracy of the federal government like everything else in your life.
You do realize that provincial offences tickets rarely even cover the costs of processing them right? As far as a money making scheme goes they totally suck balls.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by anodic

It's the typical sob story of the 16-26 year old male, who believes the world is out to get him, it's just that this time it's an older fellow who admitted to driving aggressively, breaking a couple of laws, and then talking back when it came time to pay the piper.

Yea, I have to tell a counter story.

My middle son was passing through a small town near us that has a 3 way stop. He has driven this route at least twice a week since he went to college 6 years ago, and still does it because he participates in a community band at the school.

On his way home last week, it was late and no one else on the road. Not really thinking, he made the right turn at the 3-way stop, basically rolling through the stop sign. Well, rolling through is being generous, he basically just treated it like a normal right turn.

Now the 3-way stop is AT the police station. He got pulled over and ticketed. When he got home he said "Well, got a ticket for not obeying a stop sign, I need to go ahead and pay the stupid tax on that one", as he goes to go online to pay it. He never said it was the Cop's fault, or said it was unfair. He realized he screwed up and paid the fine, the first ticket he's ever gotten after 8 years of driving.

Yep, I'm proud of him.

Now had he really not done it, or it was questionable, then we would have had a discussion about at least going to court, but in the end he did the crime and paid the time.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by anodic

It's the typical sob story of the 16-26 year old male, who believes the world is out to get him, it's just that this time it's an older fellow who admitted to driving aggressively, breaking a couple of laws, and then talking back when it came time to pay the piper.

Don't think he is saying he doesn't deserve anything at all and it is the severity of the charge that he is objecting to.
I have to agree with him in this case. Based upon his description (yes it could be biased but it is all we have) a stunt driving charge is extremely excessive.
I do agree with you, that based upon the description of what was said, he probably pushed a few of the cop's buttons even though he may not have realized it at the time.
First rule of talking to a cop is to never NEVER try to tell them how to interpret the law no matter how much you don't think it applies or is wrong. Save that argument for a judge.
Second rule is simply don't try to make exscuses. They have heard them all thousands of times. Remember getting pulled over is different for you (hopefully) but the cops deal with it ever single day. Over and over and over. They can have little patience for people telling them how things should be and I can't blame them!
I have been pulled over (was always "guilty") well over a hundred times and have received only 3 tickets. Two of those were thrown out in court and the other was never even registered so technically didn't exist. I attribute that track record to admitting what I did wrong and otherwise keeping my mouth shut. Sure you have to stand through a 5 minute lecture on the side of the road but in the end your record is clear. Ironically enough the longer your record is clear the more things you can get away with since when they check it looks like your first time!

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

So, in this case, what the Cop saw was a car speeding up to make a light, making a hard turn with a potential loss of control, and then speeding at 30KPH over the speed limit (which I imagine is a good % over the limit) and then when stopped gives him grief about technically not breaking a law.

OK, it may not have been "stunt driving" but there's nothing in this description that says the Cop was "out to get you" either. Where in all this were you not breaking at least one law?

I was speeding briefly, maybe 110 in an 80 zone which is not extreme. And that was after the momentary skid as I drove off. Stunt driving is 50 kph over posted limit. And he didn't give me a speeding ticket and couldn't anyway, I wasn't clocked. You never go 75 in a 55 even for a short burst? Hardly egregious.

They shouldn't have the leeway to charge people with stunt driving if they weren't or if its questionable. In fact if the video evidence is bad and he does this regularly he should be disciplined. Even without a conviction I still have no license for a week and probably $1000 expenses (That's about $1.95 US lol). Usually there's a lesser charge the can ticket for, but this cop didn't have one, so he treated me like he would his own brother lol. I wasn't arguing with the guy, but if someone just accused you of a pretty severe offense and you're pretty sure thats not the case, are you gonna just sit there and say yes, yes, yes. Probably not. He probably woulda called in the flatbed anyway. A cop who followed me the distance he did and then suggests a severe charge is one who probably likes to bring in big charges to court whenever possible. The court backlogs cost the tax payers a fortune and the towing yard owner just put a deposit on a Bentley lol. The cop shouldn't decide whether to go thru with it based on liking or disliking me, that's not how the law is supposed to work.




Anyway my car was nowhere near losing control, this was a 3 way light entering a highway left turn east vs a right west. My car was under perfect control but when I hit the gas out of the turn I pressed a little to hard and the rears broke loose for a second until traction control cut the throttle for a second. My car has a bit more pep than a regular FR-S so it happened a lot easier keep in mind. I didn't skid or squeal my tires around the corner, I was at the same speed I drive on an onramp or offramp.

He needs to prove that I intentionally broke traction, which I didn't. If it didn't happen to be the first cool day of fall that day, my tires might not have broken loose.

As Tcoat said, I have to show them the tires breaking loose wasn't intentional, which it wasn't. Apparently it's difficult for the prosecutor to prove intent in a case like this and of course it must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Especially considering the the punitive measures ($2000 minimum up to $10,000. And up to 2 year license suspension and 6 months in jail.

Between you and I, I've sped down that road many many times, except without racing up to the light before making the turn. The power on exit broke the tires.

The key here is I wasn't deliberately performing a "stunt", I expected traction out of the turn. And it's not illegal to accelerate quickly from 40 to 110 in a couple of seconds, then down to 90 in a few more seconds. . Losing traction happened accidentally, not deliberately. Otherwise, it would be a stunt or a trick or whatever you want to call it.
It's an unwritten rule that 15 over never gets pulled over here, and I drive 15 over (that's 15% above limit) almost always as almost everyone does. The only way a momentary speed could result in a ticket is if the radar gun clocks you or possible if you are paced by a cruiser.

Had I done an actual drift, it would be on the cops video evidence. That would be difficult to do unintentionally on a dry road.

I'm sure what I did happens to many first time V8 Mustang and Camaro drivers until they get used to it, and that too would be unintentional. Luckily I don't have that kind of horsepower or I would have been in trouble for sure.

From all the info I've gathered in the last 2 days it looks like this one will not stick, just like my tires did. So it's gonna cost me beer money for a bit hopefully that's it and I will be driving more calmly since it's not worth all the stress.

FYI, cops here can make over $100K/yr with court time easily, so they aren't usually meatheads, most have university degrees now. And unlike myself, he gets paid for the court time.

[DarkPira7e]

In the US, you can get tickets for aggressive acceleration, which is a vague claus all in itself. I can't imagine losing traction on dry pavement in front of the police and not getting pulled over. Hell I've been in a car that was pulled over (we were parked already, he just put his lights on and parked behind us)) because he thought we were doing drugs. Nope, just tuning on the laptop.

[Dadhawk]

Thanks @wbradley, what you say makes sense, all I was saying is I could see why you got pulled over from the law enforcement prospective, but as I said it is hardly "stunt driving", unless your stunt driving statute is similar to the "reckless driving" statute here, which basically is "anything perceived to cause danger to yourself or others" in the misdemeanor version of it. The officer has a lot of discretion with it, but then has to prove his case.

Originally Posted by wbradley

...You never go 75 in a 55 even for a short burst? Hardly egregious..

Actually very rarely. 20MPH over posted or anything over 80MPH regardless of the posted speed limit here gets you into "super speeder" territory and almost guarantees you'll get pulled over if there is a cop within sight. I usually stay within 10 MPH of the speed limit.