Gen 2 Autocross Classing | Write your letters!

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

No, it's not even remotely the same. I don't remember the ND2 suddenly having a 0.4L worth of displacement

It kinda did though, in fact it is a bigger difference than the ZC6/ZD8 on paper.

ND1: 155hp
ND2: 181hp
17% increase

ZC6: 205hp
ZD8: 228hp
11% increase

To get a 17% increase like on the Miata, the ZD8 would have to have 239hp. Which it might. With a ~15% drivetrain loss that should dyno around 205 at the wheels.

So it sounds like it’s exactly the same power increase from the early dynos we’re seeing.

[steverife]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

It kinda did though, in fact it is a bigger difference than the ZC6/ZD8 on paper.

ND1: 155hp
ND2: 181hp
17% increase

ZC6: 205hp
ZD8: 228hp
11% increase

To get a 17% increase like on the Miata, the ZD8 would have to have 239hp. Which it might. With a |15% drivetrain loss that sold dyno around 205 at the wheels.

So it sounds like it’s exactly the same power increase from the early dynos we’re seeing.

We are talking about ST here. Stock horsepower ratings are irrelevant. A big chunk of the ND2 gains are in tune and other things that you can address in ST.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by steverife

We are talking about ST here. Stock horsepower ratings are irrelevant. A big chunk of the ND2 gains are in tune and other things that you can address in ST.

I was under the impression that the ND2 carried their advantage over the ND1s even with boltons. Then again I haven’t looked into that in a few years, so I could be wrong.

[steverife]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

I was under the impression that the ND2 carried their advantage over the ND1s even with boltons. Then again I haven’t looked into that in a few years, so I could be wrong.

I don't know power numbers for either car in STR trim (probably someone lurking that does), but the ND2 saw something like a 3 ft-lb increase stock. It is disingenuous to suggest that ND1 to ND2 is comparable to the Gen1/Gen2 twin update.

Plus, it wasn't classed in ST immediately, so if we follow that lead, then you aren't getting classed for next year.

[MacSpeed]

Originally Posted by steverife

We are talking about ST here. Stock horsepower ratings are irrelevant. A big chunk of the ND2 gains are in tune and other things that you can address in ST.

And we are yet to see what ST* mods will do to a gen2 car. They could respond better or maybe wont at all. I think STAC should hold off on classing for a year truthfully and reevaluate for '23.

Class it in CS for '22 for street and see how it does and drop to DS the year after if they get crushed.

But really, in the end, the Gen1 twins had a 8 year run in STX. That's pretty solid for most cars. Classes speed up with time, its just the nature of it all. I think the STAC could shuffle a few cars around with the GRZ's in STX and make it comparable on times. My flame suits ready for the STX hate since I know this will burn most of ya'll but still feel like that where it belongs. I feel like the ND's weight advantage will be hard to overcome, even in CS and more so in STR. I don't really have any dog in this ST fight since I'm planning on playing in Street for a few years.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

I was under the impression that the ND2 carried their advantage over the ND1s even with boltons. Then again I haven’t looked into that in a few years, so I could be wrong.

That is correct. Now, if the ND1 was able to use E85 (obviously can't in ST) that gap would be much less because the ND2 cannot run high content blends with the OE injectors where the ND1 can. FBO E85 ND1's make around ~180 whp as opposed to a stock ND2 is like 175 whp'ish.

So yeah, no surprise to anyone that the faster ND2 is faster.. lol

[Locust]

Originally Posted by steverife

I'm kinda feeling STU. Especially since we seem to be okay with the Fiats in the class.

Dsouza straight timed STU. It's not going there.

[steverife]

Originally Posted by Locust

Dsouza straight timed STU. It's not going there.

As long as they don't put it in STX right away, they can put it in STH for all I care.

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by MacSpeed

And we are yet to see what ST* mods will do to a gen2 car. They could respond better or maybe wont at all. I think STAC should hold off on classing for a year truthfully and reevaluate for '23.

Class it in CS for '22 for street and see how it does and drop to DS the year after if they get crushed.

But really, in the end, the Gen1 twins had a 8 year run in STX. That's pretty solid for most cars. Classes speed up with time, its just the nature of it all. I think the STAC could shuffle a few cars around with the GRZ's in STX and make it comparable on times. My flame suits ready for the STX hate since I know this will burn most of ya'll but still feel like that where it belongs. I feel like the ND's weight advantage will be hard to overcome, even in CS and more so in STR. I don't really have any dog in this ST fight since I'm planning on playing in Street for a few years.

So the best, we’ll subscribed class in ST you want to completely make a car that has has great subscription history irreverent?

Quit thinking about yourself lol. Logical thinking doesn’t exist here, the car is too quick for STX as it’s laid out in current form. STR CLEARLY needs the help to sustain the class


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[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by steverife

I'm kinda feeling STU. Especially since we seem to be okay with the Fiats in the class.

Fiats have turbos. STU and STH are the boost classes, STS, STR and STX are all NA.

The ND2 gained top end which was nice, but nothin like the torque the fa24 is showing across the board which even without power mods will wipe the floor with the fa20 and renesis cars. Seriously, the ND2 makes 3 ft-lbs more torque then the ND1. I don't like one make classes, but I'm not building a competitive car so whatever.

Wouldn't be shocked to see stx die, I'm not sure what ST will look like in a decade. I agree with Kyle, don't mess with a good thing, but it won't live forever.

[steverife]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Fiats have turbos. STU and STH are the boost classes, STS, STR and STX are all NA.

I mean, 6 N/A cars trophied in STU versus 4 turbo cars.

It makes sense in STR because of pace and low displacement n/a car. And STR needs help.

It makes sense in STU because STU is a diverse class that needs help and I think it makes sense compared to the theoretical pace of the class. But it could be an overdog because STU is weird.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I agree with Kyle, don't mess with a good thing, but it won't live forever.

STS seems to be untouchable…

Again, we’re thinking in terms of a national level and 86’s in here… but right now there’s some really good local parity with the BMW’s, RX8’s, Lexus, etc out in the world and those cars would get absolutely crushed by the next gen 86.

STU is undersubscribed, but at least it’s interesting.

[trippinbillies40]

I kinda struggle with this one as I can see both sides of the argument. Obviously I want it classed so I can go play where I have a chance of winning. But, it could really upset any ST class it goes into. The hard part is STU is the fastest class, but it's also the most diverse meaning the biggest risk of major course dependency. I don't think it will be an overdog over an ND2 in STR but it could be...

Best solution? Autocross needs more classes. Let's make STX2 just for the ZD8s. Maybe STZ? STGRZ?

I'll just show myself to the door.....

[RT-BRZ]

This is an interesting thread. I have a lot of interest because I've only had my 13' BRZ for a year and I specifically built it for STX.

So, a couple of thoughts:

1. Does it make sense to just add another ST class to address both the ND2 and the FA24 cars? I know this dilutes things a bit but there is a very large pool of STX cars that we are at risk of pushing out just to accommodate one or two new models.
2. Just wanted to put the 2021 indexes out here so that it might be easier to see how/where the ST classes line up and where we would expect the FA24 cars to fit.

STS 0.811
STH 0.813
STX 0.816
STR 0.827
STU 0.828

Looking at things, if the FA24 is too much for STR then STU seems logical but it really looks like we're splitting hairs. If it's going to get its ass handed to it in STR then there seems to be a lot of room between STX and STR.

Here is the quote from the 2021 SCCA Rules:

• Street Touring Sport (STS) – Naturally Aspirated Front-Wheel Drive sedans and coupes, and similar performance light/older RWD and AWD cars. Emphasis on momentum and handling over power.
• Street Touring Roadster (STR) – Low to medium HP Rear-Wheel Drive roadsters and coupes. Generally, sports car based chassis.
• Street Touring Xtreme (STX) – Medium HP coupes and sedans. Primarily RWD with some performance matching AWD mixed in.
• Street Touring Ultra (STU) – Higher power and performance sports cars and coupes, along with similarly high performance AWD sedans.
• Street Touring Hatchback (STH) – Turbo hatchbacks and sedans.

14. Street Touring®
The Street Touring® category of vehicle modifications is meant to fit between the current Street and Street Prepared categories. This category provides a natural competition outlet for auto enthusiasts using affordable sports cars and sedans equipped with common suspension and engine modifications compatible with street use.

No matter how you look at it, there does seem to be a case to be made for working through how these cars are classed. It might make as much sense to just wait a year and see and don't let it be eligible at all but either way it doesn't seem likely that putting the FA24 makes any sense given the current subscription rate.