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Old 09-13-2013, 11:30 PM   #29
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Just to be clear, these two cars were not custom tuned. They were just programmed with Vishnu's Stage 1 map. Jeff's car, in particular, only had to verify HP, not to tweak it for max power. The other car saw more runs because Shiv applied the baseline mapping changes one at a time for documentation purposes. These very same maps will be available on their website on Monday.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sierra View Post
1. How do know if you have a good tune from Ecutek? It's not something you can access to check.

2. Because others do know and are able to pass comment.

3. Yes.

Don't forget the cost!
Right, I don't know the ECUTEK tune will be good or not, but really I wouldn't be able to know if the OFT tune is good or not either. I don't know how to read any of the data. The only way for me to know is to take each of them to a dyno.

The difference seems to be that I should be able to take the OFT system and tune to a tuner of my choice, whereas with ECUTEK I have to find a licensed dealer, and I might not even like that dealer.

Along with the price difference this seems like a large benefit.
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Old 09-14-2013, 01:10 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Superhatch View Post
Right, I don't know the ECUTEK tune will be good or not, but really I wouldn't be able to know if the OFT tune is good or not either. I don't know how to read any of the data. The only way for me to know is to take each of them to a dyno.

The difference seems to be that I should be able to take the OFT system and tune to a tuner of my choice, whereas with ECUTEK I have to find a licensed dealer, and I might not even like that dealer.

Along with the price difference this seems like a large benefit.
Sounds good to me. The open nature of this product and mapping should reasssure you, even if you don't follow all the details.
If I were over there I would be keen to have Vishnu fine tune mine.
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Old 09-14-2013, 01:35 AM   #32
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Can't wait! I'll be in Milwaukee all weekend and then heading home where the tablet should be waiting!
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Old 09-14-2013, 01:49 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by RehabJeff86 View Post
Its even more shocking to see AFR running so lean above 14 from 4.7k rpm to redline.
I'm curious; did you see this from datalogging, the base fuel table values, or just comments from the tuner?

edit: I think I know now I actually read the first post properly.

@Rombinhood@OpenFlash Can you find out what reference lambda kit Shiv is using?
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Old 09-14-2013, 01:55 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by ft_sjo View Post
I'm curious; did you see this from datalogging, the base fuel table values, or just comments from the tuner?
Actual AFR is logged by the dyno (from tailpipe mounted wideband sensor) and plotted on the dyno graph (see graphs) along with HP and TQ.

Datalogs from the stock lambda sensor are inaccurate. And values in the fuel table are meaningless since since they are calculated and before any additional fuel compensations are applied.

I believe the Mustang Dyno at FFTEC uses an innovate wideband controller with standard Bosch wide range o2 sensor.
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Old 09-14-2013, 01:57 AM   #35
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@ft_sjo - i'm seeing the 14.2 AFR on RehabJeff's first dyno plot (two runs of the ecutek tuned firmware). It seems pretty clear on the chart. I had to take a double take since the scaling on the AFR is different when there was a richer run on the other charts.
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:08 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rombinhood@OpenFlash View Post
Actual AFR is logged by the dyno (from tailpipe mounted wideband sensor) and plotted on the dyno graph (see graphs) along with HP and TQ.

Datalogs from the stock lambda sensor are inaccurate. And values in the fuel table are meaningless since since they are calculated and before any additional fuel compensations are applied.

I believe the Mustang Dyno at FFTEC uses an innovate wideband controller with standard Bosch wide range o2 sensor.
Thanks for the confirmation. I appreciate the OE sensor is not the most accurate of thing on the richer side of stoich, but neither is an LSU4, stones in glass houses n'all
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:09 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by FRSTEVE View Post
@ft_sjo - i'm seeing the 14.2 AFR on RehabJeff's first dyno plot (two runs of the ecutek tuned firmware). It seems pretty clear on the chart. I had to take a double take since the scaling on the AFR is different when there was a richer run on the other charts.
It is somewhat amazing how wrong some people can get it!
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Old 09-14-2013, 03:11 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superhatch View Post
I'm at a bit of a loss here. Perhaps someone could answer my questions? Forgive my ignorance, I've never been in the tuning game before.

1. If Vishnu makes a tune for 93 how will this be different from an ECUTEK tuner making a tune for 93? (assuming you are comparing it to a good tune)

2. If I have no idea how to read a tune, or interpret the data, what good is an open tune for me?

3. Is this product good because I can take it to a reputable tuning shop and have them tune the car without the need to be a dealer of the Tablet?

4. I think that we can all agree that getting a tune on the dyno is the best way to go about it. I like the idea of taking a really good tune for a stock car, and uploading it, then later when I add a full exhaust just taking someone else's solid tune (who has the same mods as me) and loading it to improve the benefit of my add-ons.

But in the end wouldn't I rather just get another dyno tune once I add a bunch of mods?
1. With proper tuning both Vishnu and EcuTek tune should be similar +/- 2 whp and wtq - BUT keep in mind, OpenFlash Tablet tune file is transparent where as EcuTek tune is not. Hence, a bad EcuTek Tuner can hoax you with a fake tune just like what happened to me
2. Post tune file data on the forum, there are enough knowledgeable OPs here to help you interpret, this is the beauty of open source, no tuner can Mickey mouse you.
3. Absolutely yes, anyone can contribute to creating tune file without requirement of a tune license. All you need is the OpenFlash Tablet to DL the tune file from PC to flash into your ECU. All tune files will be available thru website for DL at no additional cost. And all cables are included at no additional cost as well!!
4. Yes Custom Dyno Tuning is the best way to go if you already have EcuTek, but cost a leg and arm. Vishnu Tuning has done most of the hard work for OpenFlash Tablet end-users with proven dynoed tune files at a economical cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryMichaels7 View Post
S you have 2 tunes 100 percent the same....ecutek vs openflash
ecutek and openflash are just the means of flashing the ECU with the tune file
Now my question is what else can they do? Lauchcontrol, 2step, nolift shift? like other tuners with ecutek offer can openflash do the same?
Yes, Vishnu Tuning will provide all those features plus much more, I will have to leave it to Rombinhood to explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superhatch View Post
Right, I don't know the ECUTEK tune will be good or not, but really I wouldn't be able to know if the OFT tune is good or not either. I don't know how to read any of the data. The only way for me to know is to take each of them to a dyno.

The difference seems to be that I should be able to take the OFT system and tune to a tuner of my choice, whereas with ECUTEK I have to find a licensed dealer, and I might not even like that dealer.

Along with the price difference this seems like a large benefit.
Absolutely yes, now we end-users are in control :happy0180:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ft_sjo View Post
It is somewhat amazing how wrong some people can get it!
Yes, and I had to learned the hard way losing $850 for a trash tune, I almost fork out another $750 for a local EcuTek master tuner to dyno tune, thank God Vishnu Tuning came to rescue me
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:03 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by RehabJeff86 View Post
Or OpenFlash Tablet is the solution that End-Users can see whats been done with each tune file so you are not just blindly programming your ECU. Vishnu Tuning will do the hard work coming up with proper tune file suitable for each application, i.e. 91, 93, 100, e85, flex, and FI, etc.
Most users have no idea what they are looking at when looking at map files, and many don't care to. It really comes down to finding a tuner you trust who has repeatable results. Ecutek has very powerful data logging, even Though you aren't looking at the map and tables doing a comparison between a base stock map and a tuned map isn't rocket science. Most people on here will be blindly programming their car no matter what the flash method is, that's just reality.

I am glad there are more options but tuning isn't really dependent on the device doing the flashing. No vendor lock in is a big win, I agree.
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:07 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rombinhood@OpenFlash View Post
So I was interested in see what made the Ecutek tune perform like it did. I wanted to rule out the possibility of there being something wrong with the car. So I read the tune off the ECU and then did a difference comparison with the stock tune. Here are the list of most of the tables that were adjusted (and how they were adjusted).



Accel pedal torque request tables-- these were modified to make the car feel "more peppy" so that the press of the throttle pedal results in more throttle opening. This doesn't actually improve max power but does give the subjective impression of more power.

Rev Limters- They were raised to 8000rpm. Absurd and unnecessarily stressful for an tune/engine that makes peak power at 7000rpm.

VTT maps- Exhaust VVT was barely modified over stock. Intake VVT map was slightly more modified but nothing close to optimal. This is why the torque dip was barely improved over stock.

Ignition Advance map- ~0.5 deg was added above 3600rpm under load. Not much tuning here.

Base Ignition maps- all stock (even the extra ones that Ecutek codes for in their Race ROM).

Closed Loop AFR maps: These were all set to 14.7:1. This disables long-term fuel trims. This was an intention choice the tuner made.

Fuel Map- here's where what I found shocking. It was mapped intentionally (ie, this was not a result of a series of typos). I don't think the tuner, who was responsible for the tuning, even used an actual external wideband AFR sensor. Instead, I'm guessing he relied only on the stock AFR sensor which anyone who has actually tuned this platform, already knows that it is NOT ACCURATE. It is calibrated to read far richer than reality. Furthermore, the values put into the Fuel table don't translate to the logged (ie, still inaccurate) AFR. For example, if you put 12:4 in the fuel table, you will see around around 13:5 in your datalogs. But your actual AFR (measured with a proper wideband AFR sensor) will read around 14:1. My guess is that this tuner made a couple wrong assumptions. First, he thought that the stock AFR sensor was accurate when he tuned on the road through datalogs. Second, he thought that what he believed was a 13.5:1 AFR was ideal which isn't close to being the case on a high impression engine with an aggressive cam profile (when actually, you want to see as rich as 12-12.2:1 in your datalogs which actually translates to an actual of 12.8-13:1 when measured with an accurate wideband sensor). There is no other reason why I can think that he would have tuned it this way. I wouldn't even call this tuning. It's more like fiddling and hoping for the best. And to be fair, there is some error involved with measuring AFR at the tailpipe, post catalytic converts where they tend to read ~0.2 point leaner than reality. But even that still puts this tunes squarely in the 14:1 range during most of it's RPM band.

Also, there were no mapping changes to important things like acceleration enrichments, over-run maps, o2 sensor calibrations, closed loop delays, etc,. I don't consider these maps very high level. Any competent tuner would adjust these immediately as are very responsible for throttle response, drivability and knock resistance.

Sorry if this upsets anyone. But sometimes people need to be upset before improvements can be made. My biggest problem with Ecutek "master tuners" is that they often aren't experienced tuners. They are customers of Ecutek. Ecutek makes amazing software geared towards their customers (their "master tuners"). There is no coincidence that they are first to market and are able to offer features that others don't. But when it comes to tuning (which is what matters), the product is only as good as those tuners who use it. And when you deal with tuners who are inexperienced and who don't disclose mapping details, there is very little growth since every "master tuner" operates in their own little bubble. Hopefully OpenFlash ROM tuning (which is now finally here!) will get them to shape up and improve upon their product.

That's my 2c,

Shiv

PS. When comparing the tunes, I made sure that the ignition advance multiplier was always set to 1. This is important when comparing tunes to the stock ROM which defaults to 0.7 after ECU reset which would otherwise result in an artificially low stock baseline dyno.
And the truth comes out about EcuTek once again. Thank you guys for all your hard work!
I had a feeling that when someone took the time to do a comparison this would come to light. Reminds me of another forum....
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:15 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Cross View Post
And the truth comes out about EcuTek once again. Thank you guys for all your hard work!
I had a feeling that when someone took the time to do a comparison this would come to light. Reminds me of another forum....
Jesus christ will you people stop saying stuff like the "Truth comes out about Ecutek". That's just stupid. And for the love of god don't quote a 5 screen post.

It's "the truth comes about tuner X who provided a shitty tune who will remain nameless"
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Superhatch View Post
Right, I don't know the ECUTEK tune will be good or not, but really I wouldn't be able to know if the OFT tune is good or not either. I don't know how to read any of the data. The only way for me to know is to take each of them to a dyno.

The difference seems to be that I should be able to take the OFT system and tune to a tuner of my choice, whereas with ECUTEK I have to find a licensed dealer, and I might not even like that dealer.

Along with the price difference this seems like a large benefit.

not to mention that once you pay that tuner, like him or not, he's your man. you can't even take it to another ecutek 'master' tuner... it's locked to that one individual vendor. great for business.... bad for us.

this should be the automobile to the ecutek's horse and buggy, for sure. there's just no good reason to pay nearly double the price to be locked in to a tune you're not allowed to even look at or verify (or have someone else verify) that anything useful was done to it. it couldn't have come soon enough... i just feel bad for all those shops that coughed up $10k for nothing lol.

Last edited by jamesm; 09-14-2013 at 11:30 AM.
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