Boost vs N/A - questions

[lyda]

This has been covered in many threads, but I have specific questions that I have not found by searching. So here goes. No flaming plz.

Boosting has obvious benefits in power, but the FA20 engine seems prone to issues when boosting—too much anyway.

My question… is it more reliable to focus on N/A gains? There appears to be a lot of mods that can be done to provide reasonable gains. Would it be more stable?

I've read that the "built" engines, unless by extremely reputable shops are often unreliable, however I am curious about DDs not track cars for the purpose of this thread.

For almost the same $$ as boosting, if you did headers, power blocks, throttle control or OFT, and the like couldn't you have solid gains and a measure of reliability?

This is vague, open-ended, and probably naive, but I wanted to get some real info in one thread. Again, flaming me does not add to the conversation. I'm fairly new to the car and learning as I go. So…

Better to boost or build up N/A power?

[TommyW]

A proper motor and FI and all the things that go with the extra power can run up a 15k bill. Stock internals are less

[Mr.ac]

Well the rule of thumb is the more you mod, the less reliable it becomes.
But.... if you get a proven kit and not go too much, it should be ok for a long time.
As to power, something under 350-300 hp should be ok.
Then again, you never know. It could blow up in 4K miles or 100k.
I would read up in the supercharged/turbo threads and see how long people go with out issues.

[Turdinator]

Well how's this for a generalized overview.

Full bolt-ons (including a well researched header) with a good E85 tune will net you some noticeable results in feel and acceleration. You will get a nicer torque curve and more power over all. At best you will get a 10% to 15% increase in torque and power with better drivability. The risks and costs involved here are fairly low.

If you are serious about NA power you can start looking at cams, ITBs and significant improvements to the oiling system. Not many people have gone this path so there is not much info. Because you will be mostly going it alone cost increases, risk increases and power will only improve by so much. I have seen a Toyota 3SGE Beams make nearly 270hp at the wheels at close to 10,000rpm. That motor had years of development and tens of thousands (at least) of dollars spent on it. If you had the time and money there is nothing to say you couldn't do the same with the FA20. So high risk and very high cost for not a huge amount of power but you will have a very unique setup that would probably sound sexual to anyone you drove past.

A low boost turbo with a conservative tune could easily get you around 250hp and as a daily driver you may never have any issues with reliability. That said you may have a week rod that will bend even with the low stress turbo setup as you are still adding boost and power beyond what the FA20 was designed for. I'd call this a low to medium risk and cost setup.

A high boost setup with a built motor can get you some serious power and torque. In the early days you would see people on the forums pushing 500hp to 700hp. The problems at these sort of levels are more to do with the gearbox, axles and still the oiling system of the FA20. Oh and traction. Risk and cost varies but doing it right I'd say high cost with medium risk.

Like I said above this is a really general overview based on the things I have read over the years. YMMV

How much power above stock do you want? What do you feel you car lacks when you drive it? Have you had your car on a track?

[86MLR]

Unless you are governed by regulations due to motorsport, throw on a little turbo.

Keep it under 300hp and limit the torque down low and the risk is minimal.

It isn't rocket science, if your smart you can have some power with reliability, but, if you push past thebasic you run the risk much higher.

Most of the horror stories you here are from poor tunes or people not knowing the mechanical limits.

"Sound engineering principles" should be your daily mantra..

[DarkPira7e]

If you do not want to add stress to your car, stick to very basic modifications - exhaust, intake, pro tune. Even something like the intake manifold spacers can introduce headaches- the less you need to remove from the car, the better.

Forced induction's unreliability is mainly based on the modality of what you're adding power-

I find that turbocharges are more reliable than a supercharger.
Why?
Because they are actually very basic. They have a CHRA that can be replaced, seals that can be replaced, and at minimum just require an oil line to and from the turbo. A few vacuum lines with the tune and you're set. Any kit should come with a manifold and requisite exhaust pieces, which if machined correctly, will just replace/supplement the existing hardware.
Here is your first weak link- exhaust leaks, especially at the header, will cause issues everywhere. Tune, how it runs, loss of power, bad noise, etc.

Second weak link - oil fittings, these need to be installed near perfectly, or else oil will leak. I shouldn't have to explain the benefits of not having your car's blood leaking everywhere, especially onto a burning hot manifold.

3rd weak link - intercooler piping is essentially adding a ton of places where vacuum/boost leaks can happen.

4th weak link - you're adding quite a bit more stress to the engine with forced induction. It's in the name - FORCED induction.

If you want RELIABLE, don't mess with anything except the catback. The car does make good power and tune adjustments using the OpenFlash tablet wake the car up quite well.
You cannot install a supercharger or turbo setup and expect to not have to touch anything. You will need to check for oil leaks, you will need to check for coolant leaks ( if your setup requires coolant), you will need to make sure bolts aren't backing off, you need to upgrade OTHER pieces of the car to accommodate them in some cases ( engine and transmission mounts) so you will incur further expense over time.

TL;DR- Stay stock except your catback of choice and you'll have a 150,000 mile car. Start messing with making power and you can expect things to go wrong.

[lyda]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

Well how's this for a generalized overview.

Full bolt-ons (including a well researched header) with a good E85 tune will net you some noticeable results in feel and acceleration. You will get a nicer torque curve and more power over all. At best you will get a 10% to 15% increase in torque and power with better drivability. The risks and costs involved here are fairly low.

If you are serious about NA power you can start looking at cams, ITBs and significant improvements to the oiling system. Not many people have gone this path so there is not much info. Because you will be mostly going it alone cost increases, risk increases and power will only improve by so much. I have seen a Toyota 3SGE Beams make nearly 270hp at the wheels at close to 10,000rpm. That motor had years of development and tens of thousands (at least) of dollars spent on it. If you had the time and money there is nothing to say you couldn't do the same with the FA20. So high risk and very high cost for not a huge amount of power but you will have a very unique setup that would probably sound sexual to anyone you drove past.

A low boost turbo with a conservative tune could easily get you around 250hp and as a daily driver you may never have any issues with reliability. That said you may have a week rod that will bend even with the low stress turbo setup as you are still adding boost and power beyond what the FA20 was designed for. I'd call this a low to medium risk and cost setup.

A high boost setup with a built motor can get you some serious power and torque. In the early days you would see people on the forums pushing 500hp to 700hp. The problems at these sort of levels are more to do with the gearbox, axles and still the oiling system of the FA20. Oh and traction. Risk and cost varies but doing it right I'd say high cost with medium risk.

Like I said above this is a really general overview based on the things I have read over the years. YMMV

How much power above stock do you want? What do you feel you car lacks when you drive it? Have you had your car on a track?

~250 to ~300 would be nice. The lack of throttle response bugs me. If I did a few minor things like BPB + a tune and the car was more responsive I would probably be happy. Not trying to drag V8s.

As far as track–I would like to some day, but this is my DD so not major driving factor so far.

I had an S2000 a while back. The F22 engine was rock solid. This platform seems a little finicky.

[lyda]

This has been some good input. I'll continue to go through other threads.

[Cephas]

Originally Posted by lyda

~250 to ~300 would be nice. The lack of throttle response bugs me. If I did a few minor things like BPB + a tune and the car was more responsive I would probably be happy.

Honestly just the Stage 1 flash on an OFT woke mine up way more than I was expecting. Not like I gained peak power really, but it doesn't seem to lug itself around everywhere below 5k like it did before.

N/A though, I haven't seen anybody even claiming more than like 230 or so.

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by lyda

~250 to ~300 would be nice. The lack of throttle response bugs me. If I did a few minor things like BPB + a tune and the car was more responsive I would probably be happy. Not trying to drag V8s.

As far as track–I would like to some day, but this is my DD so not major driving factor so far.

I had an S2000 a while back. The F22 engine was rock solid. This platform seems a little finicky.

BPB just shift your torque curve to lower rpms. If you don't like to rev the car out they are an option. A good header and tune to suit will flatten your torque curve without sacrificing the top end tho...

[lyda]

Originally Posted by Cephas

Honestly just the Stage 1 flash on an OFT woke mine up way more than I was expecting. Not like I gained peak power really, but it doesn't seem to lug itself around everywhere below 5k like it did before.

N/A though, I haven't seen anybody even claiming more than like 230 or so.

I wish I could do a butt dyno test. The car is light so bigger numbers probably don't matter, but I'm curious about cost/reward.

What about pre-boost setups? In other words, get the header, exhaust, tune, etc., then add boost later. My hope would be incremental gains that would not be wasted if I decided to keep adding power through FI.

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by lyda

What about pre-boost setups? In other words, get the header, exhaust, tune, etc., then add boost later.

This really depends on how you plan to introduce power. 95% of turbo kits replace your exhaust pieces

[Decep]

A lot depends on how you drive.. if you are driving like an asshole all the time with FI, then yeah i can't imagine your motor will be happy. Same if you're flooring it all the time in too high a gear, which is tempting to do now that you have a lot more power.

[CSG Mike]

Done right, a FI is just fine.

It's all about preventative/supporting mods, and not being dumb with the power (e.g. don't floor it when your engine is cold).