Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[BRX]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^I'm guessing that's 700 reliably?

Because the BMW N54 could reliably do that 10 years ago. Though I don't know much about the B58.

What he actually said is that it blew up at about 750hp. That could mean two things:

1. Toyota is trying to make an engine that could withstand a lot of power and are working to improve that 750hp number further by trail and error.

2. The new engine is actually finished and it can only handle so much before blowing up at 750hp.

Regardless, Toyota didn't go with the N54 simply because it weighs over 100lbs more than the B58 and we all know how Toyota is all about "handling and driving experience".

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[ermax]

Originally Posted by HKz

I think the best compromise for everyone is to make manuals an option which cost a couple extra grand instead of being cheaper than the auto variants. Think manual enthusiasts would be happy to pay to get what they want and the manufacturer can better recoup the MT development costs, win/win?

I wouldn’t think twice paying extra for a manual. I recall when the second gen TL Type-S was released the manual cost more. But it also came with higher perf tires and Brembos. The G35 was the same way. The manual version got Brembos and auto did not.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

What? No way. There's no way they can afford the weight of an iron block. BMW hasn't made one in 10 years, 3 engine generations ago.

I'm being this thing will have an aluminum block with steel sleeves, like all the other BMW motors.

Just wait and see

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I'm not sure what time of track events you went to, but at the ones I go to the focus is on becoming a better driver and having fun. Improving, and lowering, lap times is great because it's empirical evidence that you're becoming a better driver at the given track. Do you NEED to have lower lap times to convince yourself you're having fun? I would hope not. That's a ridiculous form of enjoyment validation.

It's important to note here that due to the uproar caused by the PDK only 911 GT3, not only did Porsche increase manual availability, they developed a new manual transmission. The 6 speed manual which debuted in the 911R is not the same 6 speed used previously by other Porsche sports cars. It is a new unit, which is now available on the 911 GT3 & GT3 Touring. The GT3 RS remains PDK only.

The Value of manual transmission sports cars will never go away on the secondary market. Sports cars values' remain higher when they are equipped with manual transmissions (regardless of whether or not it was a rare option). Automatic transmission technology is always changing (and can lead to technological dead ends and oddities) but the manual transmission remains the same. It's consistent.

Well, fun for me at the track was lowering lap times. All sorts of mods, suspension, tires, and yes, transmissions, were all part of the fun.

The reason Porsche offers manuals at all is because of marketing, not performance. 911 owners, for the most part, want that original 911 experience and most 911 owners are repeat customers. Most of the newer owners get the PDK. When those older 911 owners die off, then you'll see only PDK's.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

An interesting question, I think is, who would not buy a new Supra if the only transmission option is manual (3 pedal)?

I'm an idiot and misread your question. Manual only wouldn't push me away. Auto only would though.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Well, fun for me at the track was lowering lap times. All sorts of mods, suspension, tires, and yes, transmissions, were all part of the fun.



The reason Porsche offers manuals at all is because of marketing, not performance. 911 owners, for the most part, want that original 911 experience and most 911 owners are repeat customers. Most of the newer owners get the PDK. When those older 911 owners die off, then you'll see only PDK's.

No they offer a manual because people want them. You keep going on about how the auto is faster and every one here has told you performance has literally nothing to do with it.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by ermax

No they offer a manual because people want them. You keep going on about how the auto is faster and every one here has told you performance has literally nothing to do with it.

That's what I said.... Marketing is about offering a product that sells more units...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by rvoll

This begs the question of what is "fun to drive"? Society is changing. People like the automation of smartphones -- they don't want to use a dial phone anymore, or even a flip phone without a touch screen. Today's cars have more stuff going on with phones, messaging, music. Cities are getting more crowded so driving a stick in stop and go traffic is not fun. While this is going on, automatics are getting more advanced with more speeds than manuals, quicker shifting, extra modes like sport, eco, and launch. Automatics get better mileage so you have fewer trips to the gas station. As cars get more hp, you don't need a stick to go really fast. As you go faster than ever before, it is more important to focus on the road than on shifting. If the 86 had 600 hp, your enjoyment would be going really fast and not necessarily shifting.

I get it. You are more connected with the car and the road with a manual and stiffer suspension. But "fun to drive" is more than just shifting and being uncomfortable in your seat. Times are changing and so is the definition of "fun to drive". If you look at the future, as car designers do, then you can certainly have a really fun to drive car with an automatic.

The reason manuals aren't getting more speeds too is because more gears don't make more sense from a performance perspective--only an economy perspective. The 7 speed manuals you see are essentially our six speeds with a extra gear for cars that have the power to exceed 140 mph or something. Going from 5 to 6 gears may have made sense, but we will never see a car that has the same gearing as a 9 speed automatic, that has those gears to approximate CVTs in economy. What they also do is approximate the annoyance of CVTs too.

PDKs might have quicker shifting, but not when the computer guesses wrong, and not for torque converting autos (TCA). Some development with (TCA) has shown promise to make them as fast or faster than PDKs, but these features are nice on track for those that want to maximize the tenths of a second on their times, yet rarely used for daily driving. Do I shift my manual at max speeds around town or even on canyon carving drives like I would at track?

I have the same modes too with my manual, except instead of a button I just use my hands, feet and brains.

This is the consequence of CVTs and 9 speed autos that approximate CVT's. Great for family commuters. Bad for sports cars. Are there any sports cars with a CVT?

You can have a fun car that has an automatic. You can have a fun car that has zero driver engagement too.

What is changing...? What we are seeing with the increased popularity of back-to-basics concepts is people wanting a sports car that is engaging like the Miata or 86. Car manufactures duking it out for track car supremacy may continue, but to what extent can they keep adding horsepower or gadgetry to the car to maximize track times while at the same time making the cars more numb, and expect sports car drivers to maintain interest? People are joining autocross in increasing numbers or going to track days to develop themselves more than trying to buy the newest and best car.

What you said was true about the general population, and for some people that want to pose in their sports car. For those who are enthusiasts, we will be reaching a point where power, grip and handling will be inexpensive; extra power will be more than most can handle without electronics that make the experience numb. More and more enthusiasts will be picking up an air cooled Porsche or try stripping down a Miata than will be reaching for the new technology. We see this in the market right now. We see this with boutiques that are selling $500k Singer Porsches to buyers who aren't buying the latest and greatest, electronically equipped sports cars.

I see a separation happening in the market. Toyota may understand this separation, so they may be aware that the enthusiasts are going old school, while the rest of the car world moves forward. With that in mind, I believe a manual will be the one of the centerpieces of sports cars going forward--not for all fast cars, but real, enthusiast focused sports cars.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by rvoll

That's what I said.... Marketing is about offering a product that sells more units...

To me marketing is advertising a feature to suck people in. Like, hey look we have a manual, come to our dealership so we can tell you you are a dinosaur so you'll leave with an auto.

When you say old people will die off, how old do you think manual drivers are? I'm 41 and the only autos I've ever owned were SUVs. I'm not just talking about my own cars either, I'm also including my wife's cars. I go to autoxs and the majority of the people there are younger than me (in their 20s mostly) and most are driving manuals. What started this whole MT/AT debate was me saying we need to keep people driving RX7's, 240SX, S2000, Twins ect so we can keep the MT alive. There seems to be a trend with younger kids to buy 90s Japanese cars with manuals. I think this is a great movement and I feel it will keep the MT around longer then I would have thought if you asked me 3 years ago. My original comment wasn't intended to start a debate about which is technically superior or even which one was more fun. It's just that the people who buy the AT can't stand not making every mention of an MT into a debate.

Anyways, I believe you will be dead before your dream of a planet free of manuals (dinosaurs) becomes a reality.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

To me marketing is advertising a feature to suck people in. Like, hey look we have a manual, come to our dealership so we can tell you you are a dinosaur so you'll leave with an auto.

When you say old people will die off, how old do you think manual drivers are? I'm 41 and the only autos I've ever owned were SUVs. I'm not just talking about my own cars either, I'm also including my wife's cars. I go to autoxs and the majority of the people there are younger than me (in their 20s mostly) and most are driving manuals. What started this whole MT/AT debate was me saying we need to keep people driving RX7's, 240SX, S2000, Twins ect so we can keep the MT alive. There seems to be a trend with younger kids to buy 90s Japanese cars with manuals. I think this is a great movement and I feel it will keep the MT around longer then I would have thought if you asked me 3 years ago. My original comment wasn't intended to start a debate about which is technically superior or even which one was more fun. It's just the people who buy the AT can stand not making every mention of an MT into a debate.

Anyways, I believe you will be dead before your dream of a planet free of manuals (dinosaurs) becomes a reality.

Only 4% of the cars sold in the US last year were MTs. That sounds like a very low number until you consider that it is 4% of 17,000,000.
When you consider that they still sold 680,000 MTs it is pretty hard to imagine they will stop making them any time soon. Sure, 96% of the population is interested in appliance cars which will pretty much always be ATs nowadays but the market for specialty MT cars is alive, well and still kicking.


Since Europe and Asia are still running about 80% MTs the companies are not going to just stop making them. The whole "the MT is dying" thing is a purely North American perspective and does not represent the global trend.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by ermax

To me marketing is advertising a feature to suck people in. Like, hey look we have a manual, come to our dealership so we can tell you you are a dinosaur so you'll leave with an auto.

When you say old people will die off, how old do you think manual drivers are? I'm 41 and the only autos I've ever owned were SUVs. I'm not just talking about my own cars either, I'm also including my wife's cars. I go to autoxs and the majority of the people there are younger than me (in their 20s mostly) and most are driving manuals. What started this whole MT/AT debate was me saying we need to keep people driving RX7's, 240SX, S2000, Twins ect so we can keep the MT alive. There seems to be a trend with younger kids to buy 90s Japanese cars with manuals. I think this is a great movement and I feel it will keep the MT around longer then I would have thought if you asked me 3 years ago. My original comment wasn't intended to start a debate about which is technically superior or even which one was more fun. It's just that the people who buy the AT can't stand not making every mention of an MT into a debate.

I agree with that. But..are you aware that in your previous response to my question you said you wouldn't buy a Supra with a manual transmission. That's the opposite of your above thinking

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by ermax

To me marketing is advertising a feature to suck people in. Like, hey look we have a manual, come to our dealership so we can tell you you are a dinosaur so you'll leave with an auto.

When you say old people will die off, how old do you think manual drivers are? I'm 41 and the only autos I've ever owned were SUVs. I'm not just talking about my own cars either, I'm also including my wife's cars. I go to autoxs and the majority of the people there are younger than me (in their 20s mostly) and most are driving manuals. What started this whole MT/AT debate was me saying we need to keep people driving RX7's, 240SX, S2000, Twins ect so we can keep the MT alive. There seems to be a trend with younger kids to buy 90s Japanese cars with manuals. I think this is a great movement and I feel it will keep the MT around longer then I would have thought if you asked me 3 years ago. My original comment wasn't intended to start a debate about which is technically superior or even which one was more fun. It's just that the people who buy the AT can't stand not making every mention of an MT into a debate.

Anyways, I believe you will be dead before your dream of a planet free of manuals (dinosaurs) becomes a reality.

Advertising and promotion are small parts of marketing. Most of marketing is determining what products/features/benefits are needed to sell the most units at the greatest profit. They are involved with the product engineers/designers to develop new products. They run the consumer research, both qualitative and quantitative, to objectively determine the right mix. So in the case of Porsche, the marketing people analyze the purchasing base and segment them into demographic/psychographic models and then run simulations to determine how to sell the greatest number of units. Pricing is analyzed using matrix models to maximize margins. Consumers never see the major part of marketing -- they only see the advertising, promotion, and sales tactics which have little to do with product development.

So when I speak of marketing, I'm talking about understanding the consumer base and their needs.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Only 4% of the cars sold in the US last year were MTs. That sounds like a very low number until you consider that it is 4% of 17,000,000.
When you consider that they still sold 680,000 MTs it is pretty hard to imagine they will stop making them any time soon. Sure, 96% of the population is interested in appliance cars which will pretty much always be ATs nowadays but the market for specialty MT cars is alive, well and still kicking.


Since Europe and Asia are still running about 80% MTs the companies are not going to just stop making them. The whole "the MT is dying" thing is a purely North American perspective and does not represent the global trend.

Totally agree with your statement. However, most experts say that the reason manual's sell that high in Europe is because of the price of "petrol". Low cost economy cars don't have the advanced automatic transmissions and thus manuals get better mpg. That is a two way sword, however, as automatics become more efficient at the low end. It takes a very long time for consumers to make this change -- but the change is happening, even in Europe and Asia. So the MT is dying, but at a very slow pace. The key inhibitor right now is the cost of advanced automatic transmissions. But as with most products, that cost curve will come down both in terms of design/production and in terms of larger volumes vis-a-vis manual transmissions.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I agree with that. But..are you aware that in your previous response to my question you said you wouldn't buy a Supra with a manual transmission. That's the opposite of your above thinking

Hahaha.. that was a typo. I will fix that. I meant I wouldn't buy one without a manual.