Oil Cooler/Reliability Mods

[racingfool]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

210F and 100C, depending on the test.

You say that like they're different.

210F and 212F isn't much difference.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by racingfool

You say that like they're different.

210F and 212F isn't much difference.

He said 100C, not 212F.

[racingfool]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

He said 100C, not 212F.

https://www.metric-conversions.org/t...fahrenheit.htm

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by racingfool

https://www.metric-conversions.org/t...fahrenheit.htm

Originally Posted by racingfool

You say that like they're different.



210F and 212F isn't much difference.

They’re literally 2 different tests, with completely different units. I don’t know what you’re trying to prove or say.

SUS is done at 210F
cST is done at 100C




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[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

They’re literally 2 different tests, with completely different units. I don’t know what you’re trying to prove or say.

SUS is done at 210F
cST is done at 100C

It's like Mike said. Just two different standard tests. Two degrees Fahrenheit is significant because, while the tests are functionally similar, the conditions differ enough to justify maintaining the distinction between the tests. I chalk it up to territorial pissings.


"My test was first."
"My test is better."

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by TommyW

I doubt anyone has lost a motor due to having an oil cooler however I can't say the same for the opposite.

Outside of installer error (aka carelessness) or very low quality parts (low price leaders), I don't think I've seen any engines fail from having a cooler!

While, in theory, you could lose a motor to an oil cooler getting punctured, it's an exceedingly rare occurance.

As previously stated, even OEMs include oil coolers on most performance cars.

When's the last time anyone's head of a Porsche losing a motor because their oil cooler suffered a failure?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Autoxer62

I don't know exactly how this translates to overall longevity in terms of miles, but it seems like this is a pretty good testimonial for oil coolers in general and the Perrin one in particular.

Thanks much for posting this data.

Good to have data! But without a control, we can't conclude that all (any, really) of the improvement is due to oil cooler...

Looking forward to getting oil analysis next year's track season!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Outside of installer error (aka carelessness) or very low quality parts (low price leaders), I don't think I've seen any engines fail from having a cooler!

Installer error does happen though... Leaks happen all the time with aftermarket oil coolers!

As previously stated, even OEMs include oil coolers on most performance cars.

Because those cars will have runaway oil overheating without them. Our cars don't have this problem. Mine doesn't anyway!

I just don't see 272F for 15 minutes at a time, 4 hours total between changes, with good synth 5w30 being a problem.

Could be wrong tho... If I'm getting excessive wear metals in oil analysis next year, I'll go to 40wt and see what that does.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Installer error does happen though... Leaks happen all the time with aftermarket oil coolers!

*Assuming the cooler was installed properly and the correct cooler and kit was used and installed properly by a competent mechanic.

I was going to include that in my previous post however some things just go without saying

I see posts where guys try to save money and do all kinds of Frankenstein type installs with various parts that weren’t designed to be used together. Those are the ones that I’m guessing would be the most prone to failure.

[Petah78]

Lots of great info here. I have looked into this topic for quite some time and am still undecided which way to go. I am trying to stay away from an oil cooler for all the mentioned reasons but more importantly, I want to avoid over cooling. My car sees winter use and it can get to -20c (-4f) or lower. I am only doing track evenings 3-4 times a season with spirited weekend drives (maybe total 4-5 total track running hours per season).

We are talking about oil pressure as the most important aspect, correct? And we have evidence that adding an oil cooler will effectively lower oil pressure, doesn’t that negate the benefit of the oil cooler? Would oil pressure at 40psi @ 270f be any different than 40psi @ 230f if we assume the oil can handle those temps?

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Lots of great info here. I have looked into this topic for quite some time and am still undecided which way to go. I am trying to stay away from an oil cooler for all the mentioned reasons but more importantly, I want to avoid over cooling. My car sees winter use and it can get to -20c (-4f) or lower. I am only doing track evenings 3-4 times a season with spirited weekend drives (maybe total 4-5 total track running hours per season).

We are talking about oil pressure as the most important aspect, correct? And we have evidence that adding an oil cooler will effectively lower oil pressure, doesn’t that negate the benefit of the oil cooler? Would oil pressure at 40psi @ 270f be any different than 40psi @ 230f if we assume the oil can handle those temps?

Not sure you're making the proper correlation. An oil cooler keeps temperatures from getting above "optimal"... for the most part. The oil temperature is what affects the oil pressure. The same oil would not run 40psi at 230F and also at 270F. Pressures at the higher temperature would be lower due to the oil having a lower viscosity.

The main concept that people try to convey with this platform is that our oil temperatures get too high easily, causing oil pressure to drop. Recall Savagegeese's data from tracking:
"
0w20 Redline 185F @ 800RPM 10PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 2000RPM 35PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 4000RPM 54PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 7000RPM 65PSI Oil Pressure

0w20 Redline 225F @ 800RPM 7PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 225F @ 2000RPM 30PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 225F @ 4000RPM 48PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 225F @ 7000RPM 43PSI Oil Pressure
"
Though this data doesn't paste the whole picture, it gets the general idea across. So to answer your question, adding an oil cooler would bring the temperatures back down to say "185F" and provide you with proper oil pressure at desired RPM.

EDIT: To add to this, the data you posted does make it difficult to see the benefit, which is where some question an oil cooler. This is because at such high temperatures, there should be very minimal changes in pressure. I think what it comes down to more is an oil cooler is designed to keep your temperatures from ever getting up to the area where pressures start to even out (~240-280F+). But then nor is it ideal for the oil temps to be sitting at 170F as pressures are double-triple of what we would like. But this would only be an issue for those who mostly use their car for DD and don't ever see optimal or high temps at all.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

An oil cooler keeps temperatures from getting above "optimal"...

But what *is* "optimal" anyway? A broad range.
FWIW Ford considers 279F to be in the normal operating range for the Mustang...

The oil temperature is what affects the oil pressure. The same oil would not run 40psi at 230F and also at 270F. Pressures at the higher temperature would be lower due to the oil having a lower viscosity.

But there's an oil pressure drop due to the oil cooler. Look at the data above. Oil pressures are the same for 5w30 oil at 270F without an oil cooler as at ~250F *with* an oil cooler. I.e., the drop in pressure due to running hotter without the cooler is about the same as the pressure drop due to the oil cooler.

The main concept that people try to convey with this platform is that our oil temperatures get too high easily,

But is 272F really "too high" for full synth? I don't think it is.

causing oil pressure to drop. Recall Savagegeese's data from tracking:
"
0w20 Redline 185F @ 800RPM 10PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 2000RPM 35PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 4000RPM 54PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 7000RPM 65PSI Oil Pressure

0w20 Redline 225F @ 800RPM 7PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 225F @ 2000RPM 30PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 225F @ 4000RPM 48PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 225F @ 7000RPM 43PSI Oil Pressure
"

So run 30-(or 40-)weight for tracking...

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

I like this chart and how is shows the range of each wt specification with 20w being quite a large range in cSt for any given oil - which is why, IMHO, we should be looking at the cSt rating not just wt as 0w-40 could more like a 5w-30 at 212f. It also shows how the cSt each oil converge the hotter they become. The cSt spread between each wt at 40c is huge, while the cSt spread at 100c is not. (and that is also why we have pressure relief valves and multi-viscosity oils!)

I wish it also showed cSt at 150c or 300F but c'est la vie.

The OEM manual lists the operating temperature of oil for this car at 176f which makes sense as it's spec'd for 20w oil. If we are pushing 212f-250f consistently it makes A LOT of sense to use a xW-30 oil or higher (or install a cooler) as illustrated by Petah's graph and the info Dzmitry provided.

When Temps/Load/RPMs are high, the difference of 3-5 cSt could be whether a bearing lives or dies.

Whether you cool your oil or not - choose the right viscosity and keep those pressures up folks!

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by ZDan

But what *is* "optimal" anyway? A broad range.
FWIW Ford considers 279F to be in the normal operating range for the Mustang...

But there's an oil pressure drop due to the oil cooler. Look at the data above. Oil pressures are the same for 5w30 oil at 270F without an oil cooler as at ~250F *with* an oil cooler. I.e., the drop in pressure due to running hotter without the cooler is about the same as the pressure drop due to the oil cooler.

But is 272F really "too high" for full synth? I don't think it is.

So run 30-(or 40-)weight for tracking...

1. That's why I put "optimal" in quotations. I understand this can be broad, but based on the majority view of this, it lays somewhere around 100C (because this is typically where many vehicles achieve 10 psi per 1000 RPM).

2. Correct. Though this data is not necessarily easy to read or accurate enough to make the assumption that oil pressures are the same.

3. Not saying that 272F is too high, but we can agree that most owners of this platform agree to it, and it is certainly a general consensus among owners of many other sports cars out there. But this is where I agree that a modern full synthetic oil is probably doing a pretty solid job at keeping everything flowing smoothly. But no matter the oil, pressures still vary from temperature change.

4. Agreed, you can run higher oil weight. I didn't copy all of Savagegeese's data, but here's some more to make a point of why this still doesn't seem to be a good enough solution based on the data:
"
10w30 Redline 245F @ 800RPM 7PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 245F @ 2000RPM 35PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 245F @ 4000RPM 52PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 245F @ 7000RPM 46PSI Oil Pressure

10w40 Redline 265F @ 800RPM 8PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 265F @ 2000RPM 31PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 265F @ 4000RPM 55PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 265F @ 7000RPM 45PSI Oil Pressure
"
We can see that at 265F, at 10W40, the pressure is still quite low near peak RPM.