Is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Now, sales numbers are a horrible horrible measure of the success of a car since we have no idea how many were made and what went unsold or unbought because sold out but you see the pattern there? Yes Miatas are still around but they certainly are not a leader.

This is a very interesting point you bring up. Sales figures might give clues. The best answer would be to have profit numbers stated by manufacturers but I don't know if that's possible.

But sales figures is next best thing for now.


Looking at 2012 to 2018 (to even out global market sales shrinking), it seems in the US it is indeed what you're saying that the FT86 isn't losing ground to the MX-5. However in Europe it's a completely different story with the MX-5 dwarfing the sales of the FT86.

I don't know if this is due to the MX-5 having smaller engines and much better fuel economy or what but if I am reading this right, it does show the MX-5 strategy is working in Europe at least.

I am honestly impressed however that the FT86 is doing well against the MX-5 in the US. Of course the Mustang sales in the US alone will dwarf both FT86 and MX-5 combined and globally LOL and then again maybe the Camry will dwarf all sports cars combined, such is the nature of the beast.

If I'm making a grave mistake than over to you now

[SuperTom]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Keep in mind that the Mazda motor STILL makes significantly less specific power. 90.5 HP/l vs 102.5 HP/l for the twins. Especially for a boxer that's damn impressive. Before 2010 even Porsche didn't have an NA boxer for sale over 100hp/l except for the GT3. If the twins had as much displacement/ton as the Miata they'd have 237hp. Our engine doesn't make that much power, but it sure tries hard!

Maybe but overall slightly better power to weight ratio
Miata 181/2339 = .077
BRZ 205/2789 = .074


BRZ would need about 215 now to match the Miata

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by ermax

The question is who would buy a 165HP car that is 2750lbs? Probably not many even back in 2012.

Depends on the price point I'd guess, at <$19k I think it'd do kinda close to what the FR-S did at $25k, basically replacing the tC/Celica with a much better chassis at a compromise in practicality, which in it's final years was at ~180hp/3,000 lbs. In 2012 Scion sold ~22k tC's, after that the FR-S outsold it but only by a couple thousand, much more if you include BRZ's

After all, people are still buying 240sx's for far more than a ~2,800 lb ~155hp car would seem to be worth on paper.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1996-nissan-240sx-4/

Moot point in any case, part of the reason Subaru went along with the 86/BRZ was to learn how to do direct injection, without it I think the car would have been a 'lowest bidder' project on par with $15k econoboxes in terms of fit and finish but with an $18k+ pricetag due to the unique chassis, or maybe they'd cut more corners with that too.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Keep in mind that the Mazda motor STILL makes significantly less specific power. 90.5 HP/l vs 102.5 HP/l for the twins. Especially for a boxer that's damn impressive. Before 2010 even Porsche didn't have an NA boxer for sale over 100hp/l except for the GT3. If the twins had as much displacement/ton as the Miata they'd have 237hp. Our engine doesn't make that much power, but it sure tries hard!

Too bad horsepower per liter is an absolutely useless metric. How much do those engines each weigh? How much physical size do they take up? What are the powerbands like? What about the efficiency?

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Keep up with the times? Have you ever looked at the history of the Miata? It has fallen behind the times more than many car on the market. It goes almost unchanged for many years and then gets an upgrade. You are focused on one change that many said was decades late. The Twins have been around for all of 6 years. Lets wait and see what the Twins update is at the 30 year mark before we start saying that they have been upgraded in the same manner. Be interesting to know (and we never will) just how much impact the Twins had in the Mazda receiving the update it did. If they didn't exist would the Miata have just carried on with it's minor updates every 6 years or so?

In all likelihood, yes. The update they did is very, very similar to the caliber of the NA6 to NA8 update on the original Miata.

[JR]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Too bad horsepower per liter is an absolutely useless metric. How much do those engines each weigh? How much physical size do they take up? What are the powerbands like? What about the efficiency?





In all likelihood, yes. The update they did is very, very similar to the caliber of the NA6 to NA8 update on the original Miata.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Too bad horsepower per liter is an absolutely useless metric. How much do those engines each weigh? How much physical size do they take up? What are the powerbands like? What about the efficiency?

In the context of this discussion it isn’t a useless metric at all. No one is saying a large displacement V8 is inferior because it has a low HP:L ratio. The point people are making in this thread is it’s difficult to go much past 100HP/L without FI. In other words the FA20 would be hard to extract additional power out of without FI or a displacement bump (even if it caused the HP/L ratio to drop). The ND1 engine on the other hand had some headroom to work with without a displacement bump or FI.

Maybe I’m missing your point though.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

This is the simplest one I've come across. It should be fairly accurate. Feel free to correct.

Original weight divided by HP = 2750/200 = 13.75
Remove 200 lbs 2550/200 = 12.75

Then you divide the original weight by the new Power to Weight Ratio 2800/12.75 = 219.60

It gets interesting if you add a header/tune and bump the HP up to 230 crank.

2550/230 = 11.08
2800/11.08 = 252.70


BTW I have removed 220lbs from my car and it makes a noticeable difference. I'm working on removing another 100 this winter.

Looks like fun. Recursive improvements. I would cut the chase and boost it though

[mrg666]

Big tires, big brakes, big power, magnetic shocks, looks like a brick, weighs like one too, and beats all light sports cars both on track and drag strip. Cars like ZL1 are the desirable sports cars for many now. Just stating the reality as I see. I still prefer the nimble feeling of my FR-S. Hope it lasts long, I will take good care of it and keep driving.

[JIM THEO]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Big tires, big brakes, big power, magnetic shocks, looks like a brick, weighs like one too, and beats all light sports cars both on track and drag strip. Cars like ZL1 are the desirable sports cars for many now. Just stating the reality as I see. I still prefer the nimble feeling of my FR-S. Hope it lasts long, I will take good care of it and keep driving.

Hope it lasts long, I will take good care of it and keep driving

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Looks like fun. Recursive improvements. I would cut the chase and boost it though

Maybe when I hit 2400lbs

[finch1750]

I think weight isn't much of an issue for a few reasons (beyond most people liking things like sound deadening)

1) "heavy" cars can be made to handle extremely well, like the Zx6 chassis so you don't feel the weight as much.

2) most people have not driven a light car. Until I got my MR2 Spyder I didn't really know what light felt like. It's can't be replicated, but at the same time I prefer my FRS. Maybe once the MR2 gets modded I'll like it more since the low weight makes for a cool driving experience.

A big thing also is powerband and gearing. The MR2 has a worse power to weight but doesn't feel like it due to super short gears/it's loud (and it is so small everything seems to go faster anyway). Or how the 2017 Zx6 has the shorter final drive.

[8RZ]

Same here, I miss the nimbleness of my EG hatch and Miata, the high gearing also made them very fun to drive.

[Dr. BRZ]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

This is the simplest one I've come across. It should be fairly accurate. Feel free to correct.

Original weight divided by HP = 2750/200 = 13.75
Remove 200 lbs 2550/200 = 12.75

Then you divide the original weight by the new Power to Weight Ratio 2800/12.75 = 219.60

It gets interesting if you add a header/tune and bump the HP up to 230 crank.

2550/230 = 11.08
2800/11.08 = 252.70


BTW I have removed 220lbs from my car and it makes a noticeable difference. I'm working on removing another 100 this winter.

So according to you, i make 2460/240 = 10.25
2775/10.25 = 270.
I'm using crank hp.
Hmm.....

[Sasquachulator]

Excess power can overcome a weight deficit.

However depending on how well a car is tuned a heavy car can feel nimble and lighter than it actually is.

But its still not going to feel as nimble as something smaller and lighter. That's just physics.