2020 Toyota GR Supra Revealed!

[Borchert97]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

So you insist that to be an enthusiast you need to modify cars eh. Very narrow minded view and excludes the majority of enthusiasts in the car world. Your whole definition revolves around your likes and dislikes and that is a nice fantasy but you are out to lunch.
I am so glad that you know so much to state what they can "easily" make.
Still stuck on the numbers game are you? Comparing this car to a WRX or Ecoboost Mustang is just silly. You will fit in nicely with the 'Stang crowd when you have saved up enough to join them.

Why is that silly? They all make around the same power. You say I'm stuck on the numbers game but that's all cars are is a giant compilation of numbers. Power-to-weight, price class, center-of-gravity, 0-60, 1/4 mile, horsepower, torque. Numbers like these decide what cars are good and what cars are bad, although there are exceptions, those exceptions usually at least excel in one or two categories greatly. Take our car for example, sure people rag on the lack of power, but the low profile, good cornering, and low cost are the areas that make up for that low power figure.

I never said you need to be an enthusiast to mod cars. I never said enthusiasts had to mod cars either. I think you missed me using the word "generally" about three times. GENERALLY speaking these things are true, they're not all-inclusive. I guess maybe car culture is changing into a bunch of vape boys that don't know what a clutch is, so they found out that they can brag about how fast automatics shift to skirt around the fact that they couldn't drive a stick if their lives depended on it.

My comments still stand, the Supra is an iconic car many of us only dream of owning one day, but for the price they put it at, it's simple unreasonable. Like I said before, the Corvette Stingray and Mustang GT350 are both far better cars for the $50k price point. The Supra would compete very well in the $40k price point that includes the Camaro SS, WRX STI, Mustang GT, etc. All those cars can probably match the Supra's performance in most, if not all categories, yet cost SIGNIFICANTLY less. That's a fact. You cannot argue this. Two of them make more power and the one that doesn't delivers its power to all wheels. All three cars I mentioned that sit in that $35k-$40k price point are known beasts on the street or strip and are the subject of many drag racing videos on YouTube. I just feel like the Supra will be embarrassed on the street or strip and be average at best in its price class on the track. It's a poser car in its current state. It's a pretty car with not a whole lot of bite and it holds the name every poser wants their car to have.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Borchert97

I think no manual, and the high price point are what causes the Supra to be a flop. If the car was offered in a manual and a starting point closer to $40k, this car would be an incredible success, despite the controversial BMW engine. I was going to get one if those two points were met and they weren't. It's a gorgeous car, and it'll probably be respectable in its OWN right, BUT, it's not a Supra and is not deserving of the name Supra other than looks, and looks alone does not qualify in my mind and in the minds of many.

The car you are describing at $40k couldn’t exist. $50k is about the price of what a Supra cost in 1998 when NOT adjusting for inflation. With inflation that same car would be worth $77k. Compared to the mid ninties Celica (GT86 comparison), the MKIV Supra was a much more luxurious, much better/solid built, had more power and tech, was more refined, etc. The Mustang GT, or even the Mustang GT350, are great value vehicles, but part of that value is because they share a body with a $25k car. The Supra will not feel like a supped up 86 like the Mustang GT feels over the base model. It will be in a diferent class of car.

If you know your VWs then the best comparison would be the Touareg or CC over the Tiguan or Jetta. These were luxury models in a non-luxury brand, priced and equipped similar to luxury brands without the luxury badge. The Touareg starts at the same price as an Audi Q7. In the same respect, the Supra was Toyotas luxury grand touring sports car, miles ahead of the Celica, the MR2 or other sporty models in the Toyota brand. Again, $40k is just not achievable to make a respectable Supra.

I am with you about the manual. No manual then no way I would ever buy one.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Borchert97

Why is that silly? They all make around the same power. You say I'm stuck on the numbers game but that's all cars are is a giant compilation of numbers. Power-to-weight, price class, center-of-gravity, 0-60, 1/4 mile, horsepower, torque. Numbers like these decide what cars are good and what cars are bad, although there are exceptions, those exceptions usually at least excel in one or two categories greatly. Take our car for example, sure people rag on the lack of power, but the low profile, good cornering, and low cost are the areas that make up for that low power figure.

I never said you need to be an enthusiast to mod cars. I never said enthusiasts had to mod cars either. I think you missed me using the word "generally" about three times. GENERALLY speaking these things are true, they're not all-inclusive. I guess maybe car culture is changing into a bunch of vape boys that don't know what a clutch is, so they found out that they can brag about how fast automatics shift to skirt around the fact that they couldn't drive a stick if their lives depended on it.

My comments still stand, the Supra is an iconic car many of us only dream of owning one day, but for the price they put it at, it's simple unreasonable. Like I said before, the Corvette Stingray and Mustang GT350 are both far better cars for the $50k price point. The Supra would compete very well in the $40k price point that includes the Camaro SS, WRX STI, Mustang GT, etc. All those cars can probably match the Supra's performance in most, if not all categories, yet cost SIGNIFICANTLY less. That's a fact. You cannot argue this. Two of them make more power and the one that doesn't delivers its power to all wheels. All three cars I mentioned that sit in that $35k-$40k price point are known beasts on the street or strip and are the subject of many drag racing videos on YouTube. I just feel like the Supra will be embarrassed on the street or strip and be average at best in its price class on the track. It's a poser car in its current state. It's a pretty car with not a whole lot of bite and it holds the name every poser wants their car to have.

Oh the word "generally" makes the difference? OK so your theories are generally bullshit.
There all fixed.

[Borchert97]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The car you are describing at $40k couldn’t exist. $50k is about the price of what a Supra cost in 1998 when NOT adjusting for inflation. With inflation that same car would be worth $77k. Compared to the mid ninties Celica (GT86 comparison), the MKIV Supra was a much more luxurious, much better/solid built, had more power and tech, was more refined, etc. The Mustang GT, or even the Mustang GT350, are great value vehicles, but part of that value is because they share a body with a $25k car. The Supra will not feel like a supped up 86 like the Mustang GT feels over the base model. It will be in a diferent class of car.

If you know your VWs then the best comparison would be the Touareg or CC over the Tiguan or Jetta. These were luxury models in a non-luxury brand, priced and equipped similar to luxury brands without the luxury badge. The Touareg starts at the same price as an Audi Q7. In the same respect, the Supra was Toyotas luxury grand touring sports car, miles ahead of the Celica, the MR2 or other sporty models in the Toyota brand. Again, $40k is just not achievable to make a respectable Supra.

I am with you about the manual. No manual then no way I would ever buy one.

I have to disagree that a $40k Supra is impossible. As I've stated, for $40k, you can get a loaded Mustang EcoBoost, or a mid-level optioned out Mustang GT, both have luxury touches, loads of tech inside, customizable dash clusters, ambient lighting everywhere in the car, all on a chassis with a proven track record, literally.

I also think the Supra will feel like a souped up 86. In all honesty, the 86 is so well-built, so perfectly balanced and such a predictable and drivable chassis, that I honestly can't imagine anything not a supercar or hypercar 1-upping it. It's that good of a chassis. Anything they gained in chassis performance, they'd lose in the weight of all the extra tech and luxuries anyways.

Even with the MKIV Supra, it still had a cheaper base model that wasn't a turbo, intended for the buyers who still wanted a cool car that they could modify later with a cheaper cost. You also have to remember, the Supra was marked up almost every year of the generation. The 93 was $39k, by 96 they were $50k. It was a car that commanded respect and made its presence known, and the price was changed to reflect its popularity. Toyota is starting this one high where it won't even have a chance to become popular with the masses, the masses either can't afford it or would rather buy something much more powerful with that money. Also, the MKIII Supra was only about $28k brand new for the turbo model, and that was in its last year, and that car also received price hike after price hike.

Make no mistake about it, Toyota is trying to be, no pun intended, Lexus or BMW with this car. It commands the price of a luxury car without the performance a sports car like the Supra should have. That's where this car fails.

Let me put it another way, why do you think the Supra is $50k? It’s because of the expensive BMW engine. Wanna know what’s cheaper than a BMW engine? A Toyota engine. They could’ve made the Supra cost less, they would’ve just had to make it themselves. That’s why we didn’t get a $40k Supra.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Borchert97

I have to disagree that a $40k Supra is impossible. As I've stated, for $40k, you can get a loaded Mustang EcoBoost, or a mid-level optioned out Mustang GT, both have luxury touches, loads of tech inside, customizable dash clusters, ambient lighting everywhere in the car, all on a chassis with a proven track record, literally.

I also think the Supra will feel like a souped up 86. In all honesty, the 86 is so well-built, so perfectly balanced and such a predictable and drivable chassis, that I honestly can't imagine anything not a supercar or hypercar 1-upping it. It's that good of a chassis. Anything they gained in chassis performance, they'd lose in the weight of all the extra tech and luxuries anyways.

Even with the MKIV Supra, it still had a cheaper base model that wasn't a turbo, intended for the buyers who still wanted a cool car that they could modify later with a cheaper cost. You also have to remember, the Supra was marked up almost every year of the generation. The 93 was $39k, by 96 they were $50k. It was a car that commanded respect and made its presence known, and the price was changed to reflect its popularity. Toyota is starting this one high where it won't even have a chance to become popular with the masses, the masses either can't afford it or would rather buy something much more powerful with that money. Also, the MKIII Supra was only about $28k brand new for the turbo model, and that was in its last year, and that car also received price hike after price hike.

Make no mistake about it, Toyota is trying to be, no pun intended, Lexus or BMW with this car. It commands the price of a luxury car without the performance a sports car like the Supra should have. That's where this car fails.

Let me put it another way, why do you think the Supra is $50k? It’s because of the expensive BMW engine. Wanna know what’s cheaper than a BMW engine? A Toyota engine. They could’ve made the Supra cost less, they would’ve just had to make it themselves. That’s why we didn’t get a $40k Supra.

You're creating a bit of a perfect world here. There's a few things you're missing.

The Mustang was built from a cheaper car, then scaled up, not built from Shelby GT350 and scaled down. Scalability is easier going up to something bigger than it is going down and making this smaller/cheaper/lighter etc.

The Supra won't feel like an 86 as it's not an 86.

Toyota is not trying to be Lexus, they own Lexus.

If the Supra didn't have the BMW drivetrain it'd be more expensive.

[new2subaru]

I think the car is gorgeous! I can't wait to see it in person.

If it handles anything like the 86 and I fit comfortably I will likely buy one.

I don't care about HP numbers or flappy paddles. I hope it comes in a manual for those that want one.

[mav1178]

people are really missing the big picture here.

This car is available to every market in the world and meet all current/near-future standards, crash or emissions.

To suggest that this is somehow a crap car because of a BMW engine actually speaks volumes to how the auto industry has shifted, rather than catering to some niche enthusiast crowd.

If Toyota could build an engine for this, they would, but it makes zero economic sense, especially not when there's no viable I-6 or V-6 they can deploy to meet the emissions/power/fuel consumption targets.

At the end of the day, when Nissan offered the R35 GT-R in automatic only, buyers generally didn't care.

As for all the comparisons to other cars not in this segment, I wish people would take a step back and look at the entire vehicle portfolio offered by a manufacturer. The mere fact that some of us are throwing out cars that aren't a good comparison to the Supra simply means this car isn't meant for you. That's all there is to it.

I owed a BRZ because it was the closest I will ever get to owning a brand new Nissan S13 in my lifetime. Should I choose another car in the near future, it will just be a question of whether I want something that replicates that feeling, or if I want to go with a different type of driving experience. The Supra is great but it's definitely not for me as I generally don't like anything more than 4 cylinders.

But that's just me.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

I think the car is gorgeous! I can't wait to see it in person.

If it handles anything like the 86 and I fit comfortably I will likely buy one.

I don't care about HP numbers or flappy paddles. I hope it comes in a manual for those that want one.

The back is ugly TBH. The front is a spectacle though.

Manual 4 cyl with like 250-260 hp would be cool.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Borchert97

I have to disagree that a $40k Supra is impossible. As I've stated, for $40k, you can get a loaded Mustang EcoBoost, or a mid-level optioned out Mustang GT, both have luxury touches, loads of tech inside, customizable dash clusters, ambient lighting everywhere in the car, all on a chassis with a proven track record, literally.

I also think the Supra will feel like a souped up 86. In all honesty, the 86 is so well-built, so perfectly balanced and such a predictable and drivable chassis, that I honestly can't imagine anything not a supercar or hypercar 1-upping it. It's that good of a chassis. Anything they gained in chassis performance, they'd lose in the weight of all the extra tech and luxuries anyways.

Even with the MKIV Supra, it still had a cheaper base model that wasn't a turbo, intended for the buyers who still wanted a cool car that they could modify later with a cheaper cost. You also have to remember, the Supra was marked up almost every year of the generation. The 93 was $39k, by 96 they were $50k. It was a car that commanded respect and made its presence known, and the price was changed to reflect its popularity. Toyota is starting this one high where it won't even have a chance to become popular with the masses, the masses either can't afford it or would rather buy something much more powerful with that money. Also, the MKIII Supra was only about $28k brand new for the turbo model, and that was in its last year, and that car also received price hike after price hike.

Make no mistake about it, Toyota is trying to be, no pun intended, Lexus or BMW with this car. It commands the price of a luxury car without the performance a sports car like the Supra should have. That's where this car fails.

Let me put it another way, why do you think the Supra is $50k? It’s because of the expensive BMW engine. Wanna know what’s cheaper than a BMW engine? A Toyota engine. They could’ve made the Supra cost less, they would’ve just had to make it themselves. That’s why we didn’t get a $40k Supra.

They could have made a $40k car, but again, it wouldn't have been a Supra aka a flagship, top tier, luxurious, grand touring, sports car. It would have been a supped up GT86, and do you own an 86? The build quality is not great; the paint is crap, the fitment of parts is crap and they fall apart easily (bumper, side markers, etc), the tranny is shit, the interior is cheap and crap... I can go on. This car is well designed and well balanced, but this isn't even close to the same class of quality as the Supra.

Look at the headlights, side markers, taillights. Look at the detail and folds in the bumper, in the body. Look at the materials in the interior. Wait until you press the knobs and controls and feel the difference. The engine is better in every way. The rest of the drivetrain is better. The wheels, brakes, active suspension, etc. Nothing about the two cars are even comparable.

Buy at $25k WRX and then buy a $35k STI, and you don't get a different class of car. The interiors are basically identical. They both have AWD, turbo 4 cylinders. The STI has modest differences in the engine, wheels, brakes, suspension, differentials, etc, but at the heart is the same base WRX. For $49k you can buy the STI RA, and you still are in the same class of vehicle.

Listen, there will for sure be a turbo 4 cylinder with a manual. Who knows if we will get it in the states, and if we do, I can see the price being close to $40k, and at that price, it will be worth the value. At that price, it will be cheaper or more of a car than trying to modify an 86 to that level. I would know because I have done a lot to my car, and there is no way that it could hang in the same class.

If Toyota had made an inline turbo six exclusively for this car then the car would most definitely be over $50k. This isn't a money maker for Toyota or BMW. Just say thank you.

[Borchert97]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

You're creating a bit of a perfect world here. There's a few things you're missing.

The Mustang was built from a cheaper car, then scaled up, not built from Shelby GT350 and scaled down. Scalability is easier going up to something bigger than it is going down and making this smaller/cheaper/lighter etc.

The Supra won't feel like an 86 as it's not an 86.

Toyota is not trying to be Lexus, they own Lexus.

If the Supra didn't have the BMW drivetrain it'd be more expensive.

Lol I think you missed the joke, I said they're trying to be like Lexus or BMW with the Supra, because it has a luxury car feel to it. I was making a mockery of their ownership of Lexus and the use of a BMW engine in the car, but I guess that was too complicated for you.

I never said the Supra would feel like an 86 because it's an 86, I said it'll feel like an 86 because I genuinely cannot see a more balanced chassis than our's being built for that price. The 86 shames some supercars, let alone a run-of-the-mill $50k sports car. It's probably the biggest strength of our platform.

[mynameisnick4]

I'm seeing a lot of people say that the HP is most likely underrated and the 335HP is most likely at the wheels. This would make sense as it's reported 4.1 second 0-60 time seems a bit low for 335HP and that weight.


I think it's a good looking car especially in that matte silver color. Though at that price/performance I'd take a manual M2.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

The back is ugly TBH. The front is a spectacle though.

Manual 4 cyl with like 250-260 hp would be cool.

I would take a stripped down manual around 3,100 lbs with 250hp any day. Wait, that's a FI 86

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

I would take a stripped down manual around 3,100 lbs with 250hp any day. Wait, that's a FI 86

Like I said above, the two aren't comparable. This is like saying a FI Civic is comparable to an Audi A/S3, or a FI 86 is comparable to a BMW 230i. I have a FI 86 with wheels, big brakes, suspension, interior, etc... it won't feel like a luxury car because of these add ons.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Like I said above, the two aren't comparable. This is like saying a FI Civic is comparable to an Audi A/S3, or a FI 86 is comparable to a BMW 230i. I have a FI 86 with wheels, big brakes, suspension, interior, etc... it won't feel like a luxury car because of these add ons.

I know. I'm joking. The 86 would never be luxurious.