Video: Toyota GR86 SPIED for the First Time!

[Tcoat]

So which engine is more "endearing" the Gallo 12 or 24?


Is is no perfect engine made now and there never was. Some have a certain mythos that built up around them but they had their issues as well.


All this talk of the high powered sedans and minivans always makes me chuckle. Lets use the oft mentioned Camry for an example. For every 300HP V6 model out there there are probably at least a couple of thousand 2.5s doing a whooping 203 HP. Even the V6 only does a 5.8 zero to sixty which is not all that great. The same applies to most minivans which have an average zero to sixty of around 10 seconds! Only the handful of top trim versions come in under around 8. A 300 HP sedan or minivan sounds impressive until you start adding in weight, gearing, suspension, tires and everything else that goes into making them comfy and predicable. Horse power numbers alone are a meaningless piece of data.
Yes there certainly are some cars that are faster but the vast majority on the road are much much slower than the Twins. People just like to ignore this and compare to the handful of the fastest versions of everything else.


Oh and nobody give me the old "but the Twins zero to sixty is only with a hard launch" shit. The other vehicles are pushed just as hard to get their numbers lower.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Coaster

unlock magic new brz.

It's an interesting comparison but irrelevant to me. You've got two cars, one a production car (albeit an expensive one) and a full on built race car that started as a production car, but is now just a shell with a lot of racing bits added to it, and a lot of cash thrown at it, and they decided not to post how much cash.

Hell, given enough time, money and know-how you could do this with just about any car.

[Coaster]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

It's an interesting comparison but relevant to me. You've got two cars, one a production car (albeit and expensive one) and a full on build race car that started as production car, but is now basically just a shell with a lot of racing bits added to it, and a lot of cash thrown at it, which they chose not to post how much cash.

Hell, given enough time, money and know-how you could do this with just about any car.

I liked/was referring to the Fensport turbo one at 250 HP. Sutcliffe: "this has unlocked the real magic".

[Westen86]

I raced a 2.0T Kia Optima [up to the speed limit] and we were dead even. Oh, that was with headers OFT and E85. Im not saying Im disappointed with my FRS, but in America, the land of drag racing, its not on the map.

[jonboy99]

Well, I've had my brz on the track a total of twice in 7 years. I didn't mind the engine on either occasion.
On the street though, it would be far more fun with a chunky midrange. If the new model has 250+ hp, I'll upgrade. Otherwise I won't bother.
These comparisons with old sports cars are meaningless. They mostly weighed a lot less too.
My 2cents. :smoke:

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

People sometimes they don't know what they want. When 987 and 981 was under powered, they were complaining that Porsche didn't add power to not disturb the sales of the 911. When they finally got a turbo and serious amounts of torque, then they were complaining that they lost the flat 6 soul and sound. The difference is that Porsche can decide for itself and they don't get lost into endless discussions with another company.

Who is "they"? I've been a fan of the Cayman since it was created and never heard anyone say it was underpowered. Not the S (or higher) models. Base model, sure was a bit underpowered for the price, even after they gave it a 20 hp boost (gee, imagine a 20 hp boost in the BRZ!). Likewise the 981 was never accused of being underpowered, and most Porschephiles would argue that the car was given 4 cylinder engines because it was becoming too threatening a car to the 911. Better handling and the same engine...too close for comfort.

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Yes some people care about the difference of a sport looking 2-door coupe and a 4-door performance sedan. However, the figures above say that the majority of people don't care. They are caring more on performance figures like hp or 0-60 and the equipment levels. In fact many previous 86/BRZ owners upgraded to a WRX/STI without mentioning that they were moving to another market category. They were just seeing it as an "upgrade".

Please explain to me how Subaru owners that drive a BRZ are going to stay in the Subaru family and upgrade their performance car, unless it's an STI/WRX? They literally have no other choice but you're saying they choose it. It's not a choice if you like having a Subaru.

Originally Posted by nikitopo

They said in the compact sports car segment. There are sub-categories for sure, but all of them belong to the compact segment.

On a side note, yeah Subaru could try with a turbo BRZ and maybe it could help them to sell even more of WRX's. However, they are a typical conservative Japanese company. They would never risk doing it, especially in a car like WRX that sells quite well ...

Comparing cars based on their interior volume is ludicrous. Notice how that idiotic study/survey/pole included the Porsche Taycan. A 5300 lb 4 door sedan. Yeah okay that makes perfect sense to compare against BRZs, Si's, etc...

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

Too true. I test-drove a manual WRX before my BRZ lease ended.

No thanks.

Agreed, I did the same before buying my BRZ. WRX had some nice (though laggy) power and good handling. But the BRZ's handling and steering (that steering!!!) were out of this world. Enough that I overlooked the power deficit...for a while at least.

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect

One could make the argument that Subaru could capture sales that would otherwise have been lost to pony cars, 2 series, Miata, etc, but turboing the BRZ. Think about all the ecoboost owners who bought it because of price point and performance to the dollar, a turbo 86 could strip away alot of those sales.

So what could be attributed to cannibalizing sales from the WRX should be more than made up by capturing lost sales in general.

Also, any sales figures on the mustang and camaros?

Agreed, sales argument so horrible. If I still had a BRZ and loved it and wanted something faster than it but similar, I wouldn't consider an WRX or STI. Why would I? They look horrible and only handle well b/c of their AWD. Are they remotely lightweight? No. Driving experience is night and day.

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

There's been a lot of discussion and speculation about the engine in the next-gen car, and how much power it might, and should, have. We've all seen and heard the endless bitching about how under-powered the current car is (often from people who have never actually driven it), and how the only thing it needs is 'more power'.

Yeah, I get it... 'more power' is always 'better'. What car couldn't be improved with 'more power'? Everybody always wants 'more power'.

But to play devil's advocate and take a contrarian if not heretical point of view for a moment... how much power do you really need in a BRZ/86? For typical street driving and not the 'track'? Let's face it, most people spend most of their time in the car on the street, regardless of 'track day' fantasies and wishes (for true track rats, this doesn't apply, you're in a separate league with different needs).

The BRZ/86 is a cheap, entry-level sports car. It's not a supercar. It's not a muscle car. It's supposed to be a way to have fun for not much money. If you spend most of the time driving on the street, how much 'power' do you actually need?

My relatively advanced age no doubt has a lot to do with this, but my 'track days' are long behind me. I drive my car exclusively on the street. I don't care about the 'numbers'. I care more about how a car feels for me to drive, how my ass reacts to being in the seat, and not bragging about the 0-60 or other meaningless 'numbers' to people in a bar or gym club. Every time I drive my car (like I did today), it strikes me that it has enough power to be fun, to feel fun for me in any street driving I'm likely to do without attracting attention from the law and risking my license.

I find this a bit ironic actually, for me. When I had my S2000 I always started to get sick of driving it on the street. But would always fall back in love after spending the weekend on a track. The BRZ was the same, though sadly on any track with a long straight disappointment would always kick in.

Now my DD is a GTI, lightly modded to 300 hp. Do I "need" 300 hp? No. Do I give the GTI and Cayman full throttle in every day scenarios when I'm just driving around? YUP, sure do.

[Stephen W.]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

It's an interesting comparison but relevant to me. You've got two cars, one a production car (albeit and expensive one) and a full on build race car that started as production car, but is now basically just a shell with a lot of racing bits added to it, and a lot of cash thrown at it, which they chose not to post how much cash.

Hell, given enough time, money and know-how you could do this with just about any car.

Case in point, I've talked about this 240Z before. My former employer used to laugh at his competition in their ultra expensive purpose built race cars. However, he never took into account just how much his car had cost as it was built and paid for by his company.


https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...ostcount=68929


Check out this video of him being chased but not caught by a Viper.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Please explain to me how Subaru owners that drive a BRZ are going to stay in the Subaru family and upgrade their performance car, unless it's an STI/WRX? They literally have no other choice but you're saying they choose it. It's not a choice if you like having a Subaru.

Oh easy. It is called brand awareness. Subaru is not racing anymore in WRC, so they want a new way to attract young audience. They are not that big to spend endless money in advertisement and marketing. The BRZ is a good option for them as an eye catching sporty car that attracts young audience. The thing is that consumers don't have same priorities in their 20's/30's/40's/... They'll start with an entry level sports car, then move to a medium size family sedan or a compact-SUV, then move to a bigger SUV or a 7-seater and so on.

Don't think about single persons. You, me, a bunch of petrolheads in a forum. We are not the main target in their marketing studies. We are a very small minority.

[TheDonEffect]

Riddle me this then, there's alot of discussion of people who bought an 86 and then going to the WRX. In my experience, it tends to be the other way, a person buys a WRX, oftentimes their first interesting car purchase, usually used, and they love it. Then they catch the car bug, and want to get something a bit more... dedicated? Now more often than not, they end up buying something else, pony car, other sports cars, etc, but a good amount then buy a BRZ. They quickly realize that these cars arent any faster than the WRX and are left underwhelmed. They either then get back into an Impreza or they move on altogether.

In some people eyes, the BRZ is the more dedicated sports offering, but it's far from the fastest in the entire lineup. I've said before that if this was the recipe Toyobaru went with, they should've done it in a more humble package.

The AE86 was first and foremost, a grocery getting, cheap, humble car, that surprised people by taking advantage of things that cars with those attributes tend to have: light. The current 86 sorta hits those marks, it is decently practical, but it isnt particularly cheap. A Civic SI for instance is significantly cheaper, as is the GTI. While I like the way it looks, it's not a function over form design that the AE86 was. The 86 is more Celica than AE86.

For instance, the WRX starts right around the same price as the BRZ. The WRX also comes with a turbo engine, sophisticated AWD system, and better tires. So in essence, IMO, the WRX is actually cannibalizing sales from the BRZ. Because if practicality ever factors into the equation, the WRX wins. You give up the practicality for a superior performance car feel, and while yes the BRZ has superior handling feeling, and I emphasize feeling, but the WRX is arguably the better performer.

So the BRZ then is neither an upgrade nor a value proposition to the WRX. So in essence, it only appeals to those who specifically want a BRZ, to expound further, only to those who want a Miata but need something more practical/wants a fixed roof.

Now, if the BRZ came with some power. It would give a natural upgrade point to the WRX owners. I often see WRX/hot hatch owners also own a second, more dedicated sports car. Much like Civic owners owning an S2000, GTI owners owning a BMW M or Porsche, etc etc.

Now, the natural hang up would be well if they cram 300hp into the car, theyd have to upgrade this and that and now the recipe is ruined. I totally agree, the 86 has a sweet spot regarding its handling and feel, and when you start adding power, the OEM needs to upgrade stuff to handle the power because of all the plebians out there. Just adding 255 width sticky tires alone can change the overall feel of the car. Suddenly, you have a fast car that feels really like any other car until you take it to the track.

What I wish the OEMs would consider is that we aren't necessarily asking for a factory tuned monster, but rather just the raw material. Why not offer it with the Ascent motor, and just detune it to say... 210hp-220hp? I'm sure some of the feeling will be lost with the heft of a turbo system, as if many of us will really notice any significant change. Sure, maybe the Youtube echo chamber will say oh golly I could feel the extra 20lbs having over the nose, oh god with my superior driving skill that just shaved off .7274 seconds off my track time. But for the rest of us, it'll be fine... and oh what a great starting point to build something great.

You effectively appease the "purists" since you didn't spoil the package, and you definitely appeal those in the know by giving them what they want. 220hp, great, keeps the car cheap, keeps 95% of the characteristics people love about the car, and it draws in larger crowd. From an OEM strategic stand point, it also allows you some flexibility with the car. I mean, you could even offer it with a smaller turbo to achieve the detuned nature but have a more quick spool characteristic to try and emulate NA as best as possible, but a simple turbo swap (which on these cars shouldn't be too difficult given the location of the turbo) will allow owners to get all the power the desire. And the OEMs could take advantage of this by offering truly hotter variants in the future.

The OEMs should understand at this point that the magazines like Car and Driver are sorta out of date with the new consumer. The Youtube reviewers end up influencing purchase decisions more when it comes to these types of cars. Send out a 210hp 86 with the usual package, Motorweek with their game show voice will say it's just lackluster. Give it to youtube bro reviewer and in a few months they'll be saying omg bargain of the year, we got 350whp with bolt ons! It's frankly what sells WRXs to enthusiasts, the potential.

So a WRX owner will see the value of paying more for what seems like less with the BRZ, it's the same potential but in a lighter, more dedicated platform, and you captured a sale that would've went to a pony car, german sports car, etc etc.

[StE92ve]

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect

Why not offer it with the Ascent motor, and just detune it to say... 210hp-220hp?

You effectively appease the "purists" since you didn't spoil the package

If the 86 goes turbo, I'll be looking at something else. If the rumors are correct that it's the FA24 w/o the turbo, I'm OK with that.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect

Riddle me this then, there's alot of discussion of people who bought an 86 and then going to the WRX. In my experience, it tends to be the other way, a person buys a WRX, oftentimes their first interesting car purchase, usually used, and they love it. Then they catch the car bug, and want to get something a bit more... dedicated? Now more often than not, they end up buying something else, pony car, other sports cars, etc, but a good amount then buy a BRZ. They quickly realize that these cars arent any faster than the WRX and are left underwhelmed. They either then get back into an Impreza or they move on altogether.

In some people eyes, the BRZ is the more dedicated sports offering, but it's far from the fastest in the entire lineup. I've said before that if this was the recipe Toyobaru went with, they should've done it in a more humble package.

The AE86 was first and foremost, a grocery getting, cheap, humble car, that surprised people by taking advantage of things that cars with those attributes tend to have: light. The current 86 sorta hits those marks, it is decently practical, but it isnt particularly cheap. A Civic SI for instance is significantly cheaper, as is the GTI. While I like the way it looks, it's not a function over form design that the AE86 was. The 86 is more Celica than AE86.

For instance, the WRX starts right around the same price as the BRZ. The WRX also comes with a turbo engine, sophisticated AWD system, and better tires. So in essence, IMO, the WRX is actually cannibalizing sales from the BRZ. Because if practicality ever factors into the equation, the WRX wins. You give up the practicality for a superior performance car feel, and while yes the BRZ has superior handling feeling, and I emphasize feeling, but the WRX is arguably the better performer.

So the BRZ then is neither an upgrade nor a value proposition to the WRX. So in essence, it only appeals to those who specifically want a BRZ, to expound further, only to those who want a Miata but need something more practical/wants a fixed roof.

Now, if the BRZ came with some power. It would give a natural upgrade point to the WRX owners. I often see WRX/hot hatch owners also own a second, more dedicated sports car. Much like Civic owners owning an S2000, GTI owners owning a BMW M or Porsche, etc etc.

Now, the natural hang up would be well if they cram 300hp into the car, theyd have to upgrade this and that and now the recipe is ruined. I totally agree, the 86 has a sweet spot regarding its handling and feel, and when you start adding power, the OEM needs to upgrade stuff to handle the power because of all the plebians out there. Just adding 255 width sticky tires alone can change the overall feel of the car. Suddenly, you have a fast car that feels really like any other car until you take it to the track.

What I wish the OEMs would consider is that we aren't necessarily asking for a factory tuned monster, but rather just the raw material. Why not offer it with the Ascent motor, and just detune it to say... 210hp-220hp? I'm sure some of the feeling will be lost with the heft of a turbo system, as if many of us will really notice any significant change. Sure, maybe the Youtube echo chamber will say oh golly I could feel the extra 20lbs having over the nose, oh god with my superior driving skill that just shaved off .7274 seconds off my track time. But for the rest of us, it'll be fine... and oh what a great starting point to build something great.

You effectively appease the "purists" since you didn't spoil the package, and you definitely appeal those in the know by giving them what they want. 220hp, great, keeps the car cheap, keeps 95% of the characteristics people love about the car, and it draws in larger crowd. From an OEM strategic stand point, it also allows you some flexibility with the car. I mean, you could even offer it with a smaller turbo to achieve the detuned nature but have a more quick spool characteristic to try and emulate NA as best as possible, but a simple turbo swap (which on these cars shouldn't be too difficult given the location of the turbo) will allow owners to get all the power the desire. And the OEMs could take advantage of this by offering truly hotter variants in the future.

The OEMs should understand at this point that the magazines like Car and Driver are sorta out of date with the new consumer. The Youtube reviewers end up influencing purchase decisions more when it comes to these types of cars. Send out a 210hp 86 with the usual package, Motorweek with their game show voice will say it's just lackluster. Give it to youtube bro reviewer and in a few months they'll be saying omg bargain of the year, we got 350whp with bolt ons! It's frankly what sells WRXs to enthusiasts, the potential.

So a WRX owner will see the value of paying more for what seems like less with the BRZ, it's the same potential but in a lighter, more dedicated platform, and you captured a sale that would've went to a pony car, german sports car, etc etc.

Not so sure that that's how it works. I can make several points that would make this idea of yours seem foolish, ridiculous, and a waste of money to do. But the answers lie on the last several pages of this thread. I think your point makes the least sense from everything I've heard so far (not exactly trying to roast you, just confused on your thought process). Just to keep it simple, why would Subaru/Toyota pay a bunch of money to de-tune a reasonably engineered turbocharged engine, when they could pretty much spend the same amount of money (or even less) to just give you the real deal??? I feel as though this kind of an idea is instantly out of question for any manufacturer to take part in. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing it.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Who said they didn't do it? They mentioned at that time they didn't like the way it drove. Issue is that the FA20 engine is already too heavy and with the addition on top of it of an additional weight (~35 kg), the front to rear weight ratio is getting worse. Apparently, it was much worse to the level they could accept. Don't forget that this car is more focused on handling performance and not on engine performance.

Very true, and it’s possible they didn’t like how it handled after adding forced induction. I love the balance of my FRS, and with better tires it feels glued to the road. It’s amazing how little body roll there is. I also feel every tiny little road imperfection. Which there are many of.
I have a fondness for the FA20, it’s the little engine that could. Part of me really hopes the 2nd gen twins will keep a NA engine, something with a little more power and torque would be welcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Westen86

I raced a 2.0T Kia Optima [up to the speed limit] and we were dead even. Oh, that was with headers OFT and E85. Im not saying Im disappointed with my FRS, but in America, the land of drag racing, its not on the map.

I know you understand the FRS/86/BRZ is not a straight line performance car, and yes it’s a little annoying something like a Kia Optima is just as fast in a straight line. I stopped caring about the drag races that happen at every stoplight. Around here it’s a sea of large trucks and SUV’s, and they are all faster than my car. I just let them race each other.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

So which engine is more "endearing" the Gallo 12 or 24?


Is is no perfect engine made now and there never was. Some have a certain mythos that built up around them but they had their issues as well.


All this talk of the high powered sedans and minivans always makes me chuckle. Lets use the oft mentioned Camry for an example. For every 300HP V6 model out there there are probably at least a couple of thousand 2.5s doing a whooping 203 HP. Even the V6 only does a 5.8 zero to sixty which is not all that great. The same applies to most minivans which have an average zero to sixty of around 10 seconds! Only the handful of top trim versions come in under around 8. A 300 HP sedan or minivan sounds impressive until you start adding in weight, gearing, suspension, tires and everything else that goes into making them comfy and predicable. Horse power numbers alone are a meaningless piece of data.
Yes there certainly are some cars that are faster but the vast majority on the road are much much slower than the Twins. People just like to ignore this and compare to the handful of the fastest versions of everything else.


Oh and nobody give me the old "but the Twins zero to sixty is only with a hard launch" shit. The other vehicles are pushed just as hard to get their numbers lower.

I don't know what people drive where you live, but around my area the idea that the other vehicles on the road are "much much slower than the Twins" doesn't seem to hold water. Unless our definition of "much much slower" is vastly different.