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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 12-05-2011, 10:35 PM   #29
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If left to Subaru alone, it would've been an overweight, overpriced, AWD understeer plagued 'sports' car that no doubt would've went the way of the SVX.

If they're seriously fighting about this now, this entire project is doomed in two years.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:35 PM   #30
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Heh. This perceived rivalry between subaru and toyota its going to drive fan boy rivalries (and sales) to new levels. Great marketing! (I'll be buying which ever is lightest, and/or cheapest and/or most readily available because well, they are the same car)
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:36 PM   #31
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There are so many potential problems with pistons, fuel pressure, injectors, timing, staging, etc. I did not at any point say they were unsolvable, but those potential headaches will be there and it will take significant time for solutions to become available.

When you are chasing horsepower, you want fewer headaches, not more.

I've been modifying Subarus for more than 15 years and I just like elegant solutions to problems, rather than complex ones. One major attraction of the Subaru brand is they seem to think the same way. I find it interesting that Subaru's answer to D4S was "no thanks".

I don't want to go ripping out brand new engines, but that does appear to be the most elegant solution. It certainly will be faster and may even be cheaper.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by coyote View Post
That's where we will need to end it and just agree to disagree.

Right now, I see D4S in the same light as twin spark ignition or sequential turbocharging.

I hope I'm wrong, but I will be investing my time and money in other areas (as was the apparent wish of the Subaru engineers).
Think of it like a better version of a twin injector bike engine (the close port and the before throttle 'showerhead'. So you may need to do some development/mapping on how much of each injector to use and when, but the result should be better combustion and detonation resistance. Don't worry about it.

As the D4-S operates now, it's 100% DI at full throttle, I believe. That gives you the whole port one for any enrichment that you may do after mods. (But how the pump and distribution two each one work, I don't know.)

Yes it's new, but it sounds like just because you are out of your comfort zone, you're assuming the worst.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:19 PM   #33
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"chasing horsepower" is not what this car is about, FYI...........
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:21 AM   #34
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I have some serious questions about tuning DI motors though:

  1. Where do I source larger injectors? To my knowledge, there are no aftermarket DI injectors I can buy off the shelf. OEMs only sell stock flow rate injectors.
  2. Has anyone in the aftermarket successfully tuned this Toyota dual-injector setup? All the cars I see using it are not tuner cars, and have no tuner following (all the *FSE motors seem to be JDM).
I love GDI, but this Toyota-specific system has me very worried about tunability.
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:17 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Without D4S and no turbo it probably would have been 160HP too.. who knows though. Doesn't really matter to me either way, we just need to deal with what we are getting
nah, did you ever come with the EJ204 from the JDM Legacy 2.0R back in 2004/2005?

That engine made a 190hp @ 7000~7200rpm with a redline of 7600. This was 6 years ago (not counting the development time before 2004!)
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:46 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Silverpike View Post
I have some serious questions about tuning DI motors though:

  1. Where do I source larger injectors? To my knowledge, there are no aftermarket DI injectors I can buy off the shelf. OEMs only sell stock flow rate injectors.
  2. Has anyone in the aftermarket successfully tuned this Toyota dual-injector setup? All the cars I see using it are not tuner cars, and have no tuner following (all the *FSE motors seem to be JDM).
I love GDI, but this Toyota-specific system has me very worried about tunability.
I suggest you do some more searching and learning. But let me give you the skinny. The reason why people such as yourself are so apprehensive about DI tuning is because its relatively new to the Petrol engine community, and there for not widespread, unlike port injection. But that doesnt mean there arnt any DI tuners.

There are plenty of DI gurus arising from big shops that deals with DI, such as Cobb banging out plenty of fast Mazdaspeed 3s. (those are DI). The reason why many toyotas/Lexus with DI have not been tuned is due to the fact that the ECU is encrypted and people would rather not bother.

The FRS/BRZ is one of the very few if not the only tuner friendly DI equipped car.

1. You do not need to source larger injectors for DI, theory says they never max out because they naturally atomize fuel at a leaner level.
2. If you do need more fuel, Port Injection is there to supplement any fuel needs.

I hope this easies your worries..now go and learn more my child! GOOO FROLIC IN THE MEDOWS!
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:30 AM   #37
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I hope this easies your worries..now go and learn more my child! GOOO FROLIC IN THE MEDOWS!
Um, I appreciate the well-wishes, but some of the stuff you are saying is just incorrect.

Quote:
There are plenty of DI gurus arising from big shops that deals with DI, such as Cobb banging out plenty of fast Mazdaspeed 3s. (those are DI). The reason why many toyotas/Lexus with DI have not been tuned is due to the fact that the ECU is encrypted and people would rather not bother.
This is precisely what I'm worried about. Until I see proof positive, I'm worried the ECU is encrypted.

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The FRS/BRZ is one of the very few if not the only tuner friendly DI equipped car.
Not quite. The GM LNF motor is immensely popular, and has lots of factory tuning support.

Quote:
1. You do not need to source larger injectors for DI, theory says they never max out because they naturally atomize fuel at a leaner level.
Umm, this is physically impossible. Injector open duration has no relationship with atomization level.

All injectors, DI, EFI, NOS, or magic fairy dust have a duty cycle and are periodic, and 99% of the time are just a solenoid. They all have a maximum limits on open time.

MS3s by the way very much have an injector-limited power level. Most turbos don't cross this threshold. Big turbo builds must replace injectors. It's not clear whether the aftermarket has adapted DI for this yet; many simply switch to port injection.

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2. If you do need more fuel, Port Injection is there to supplement any fuel needs.
I'm hoping this is the case.
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:33 AM   #38
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Lulz this thread reminds me when GM released the Cobalt SS and HHR SS with the 2.0 DI engine.
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:40 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by WingsofWar View Post
You do not need to source larger injectors for DI, theory says they never max out because they naturally atomize fuel at a leaner level.
Ya what?
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:58 AM   #40
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This is precisely what I'm worried about. Until I see proof positive, I'm worried the ECU is encrypted.
Is this the only thing your worried about? because its been stated that the ECU has been unlocked for this purpose. And many tuners already have a pre-production vehicle and is most probably working on the ECU as we speak.

There should be a thread somewhere about a tuner who already has the car.

Anyway...about the Atomization, your right theres no relation to duty cycle. However Iv read that not many people have crossed that threshold of maxing out DI injectors UNLESS they are doing big turbo. And the reason why people are having issues is because they cant figure out how to richen the mixture. So yes all injectors have power limits, but even on Cobb build articles they havent stated that they need bigger injectors, All i ever read is.."having trouble with being too lean"

In Regards to the FA20/4U-GSE do you think you are going to be needing so much fuel that your DI injectors will max out? or will your Port Injectors not suppliment your fuel needs? If your going turbo, would it not be more cost effective to swap the engine for power goals rather than rebuild the entire block to accept FI and lower the compression if that were the case for fuel needs?
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Old 12-06-2011, 04:33 AM   #41
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nah, did you ever come with the EJ204 from the JDM Legacy 2.0R back in 2004/2005?

That engine made a 190hp @ 7000~7200rpm with a redline of 7600. This was 6 years ago (not counting the development time before 2004!)
I was just about to post this :p

I've been trying to find the dyno chart (subaru supplied chart from the .jp webpage) for that engine, but I don't think I saved it

At one point I was about to try and import one of those motors...
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Old 12-06-2011, 04:40 AM   #42
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- 50 litre fuel tank!
What is that? ~13.2 gallons? at ~30mpg, that's almost 400miles per tank. not bad.
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