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Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous


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Old 09-05-2013, 02:30 PM   #351
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I'm not planning on using a pinion gear thus don't need anything with a 8mm bore. For the motors ill be making my own adapter similar to the spinners they use for airplane props. As long as the center is atleast 10mm or so ill be fine. If it turns out to be less than 10mm or so, Ill just have to make the adapter differently.
By pinion (the smaller of two gears) I'm refering to the center gear that would be fixed to the compressor wheel. The larger it is the larger the spacing between the motors will be.

If you go to 10mm bore there are lots of options for gears larger enough

http://www.qtcgears.com/rfq/spurgears.htm

Has anyone considered a belt and pully driven system? I wonder if there are belts that could hold up to these kind of speeds. It might be even less durable then a geared system, but much cheaper to replace, and almost no chance of catostrophic failure unlike with gears.
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Old 09-05-2013, 02:53 PM   #352
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By pinion (the smaller of two gears) I'm refering to the center gear that would be fixed to the compressor wheel. The larger it is the larger the spacing between the motors will be.

If you go to 10mm bore there are lots of options for gears larger enough

http://www.qtcgears.com/rfq/spurgears.htm

Has anyone considered a belt and pully driven system? I wonder if there are belts that could hold up to these kind of speeds. It might be even less durable then a geared system, but much cheaper to replace, and almost no chance of catostrophic failure unlike with gears.
Thanks for the link, I will look into some of those.

If you increase the size of the center gear you also have to increase the size of the gears on the motors as well to get the same gear ratio. It follows a pretty simple formula, but the end result is you can only get so large of a gear ratio per number of motors. For 3 circles on the outside of a center circle the radius of the outside circles can only be at max 6.4ish times larger than the inner. So, depending on how close you can get the teeth, you are limited to about a 1:6 gear ratio.
For 4 circles the radius is limited to about 2.x times, I dont remember exactly, because its not enough, period. That is why I mentioned if I go to 4 motors I will be offsetting two of them and using two center pinion gears.

The pinion will be on a shaft ill be creating, so I can make it about whatever size I want to make it.

So increasing the diameter of the gears will do nothing for spacing if I want a specific gear ratio, however it could increase the strength a bit. However, since I'm wanting to spin the shaft at 100k rpm or so, there are other concerns such as the gear flying apart whether due to force or other failure. I don't expect this to be a problem since they are steel, but it could be a consideration. Its not something Ive tried to calculate. Im not sure I want to even consider finding out how I would begin to calculate it, lol.

I didn't look at belts at all. Just having to deal with enough tension is probably enough to keep me away from them. Maybe some ribbed belts would work alright. Atleast precision wouldn't have to be as high. Idk. Someone should look into it. I'm sure some high strength small belts exist.
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:15 PM   #353
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I had some time today so I took a stab at the three motor concept. This is nothing like the power that @rusty959 is planning but it's the same general idea. It's a simple 2:1 gear ratio so nothing outrageous. I'm using 39mm Turnigy SK3 EDF for the motors in this design which would give it a no load output of 72,000 RPM.

I have no plans to actually build it but if anyone else is interested it's a start.

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Old 09-06-2013, 06:42 PM   #354
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I had some time today so I took a stab at the three motor concept. This is nothing like the power that @rusty959 is planning but it's the same general idea. It's a simple 2:1 gear ratio so nothing outrageous. I'm using 39mm Turnigy SK3 EDF for the motors in this design which would give it a no load output of 72,000 RPM.

I have no plans to actually build it but if anyone else is interested it's a start.

How would you lubricate the gears?
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:50 PM   #355
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How would you lubricate the gears?
Good question, and one of the reasons I'm not big on the idea of a geared system. In this case I'd probably add an o-ring to seal the gear housing along with a fill/drain hole. Then just fill the gear housing with an appropriate oil. This is how centrifugal Superchargers lubricate their transmission.
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:37 PM   #356
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looks good neutron. That could be a nifty setup.
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How would you lubricate the gears?
once again im referencing the rc world habits here. With a composite spur no lubrication is needed. With a metal on metal setup some people run them no lubrication with no ill effects and some run a dry lube such as teflon or graphite powder.

ill probably go for dry lubes and see how they work. If I have to lift the hood every time I fill up and relube while waiting on the pump so be it. I'd probably do it for inspection purposes anyways. There are also "permanent coatings available.
I'm not going to mess with oil at all though.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:11 PM   #357
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looks good neutron. That could be a nifty setup.


once again im referencing the rc world habits here. With a composite spur no lubrication is needed. With a metal on metal setup some people run them no lubrication with no ill effects and some run a dry lube such as teflon or graphite powder.

ill probably go for dry lubes and see how they work. If I have to lift the hood every time I fill up and relube while waiting on the pump so be it. I'd probably do it for inspection purposes anyways. There are also "permanent coatings available.
I'm not going to mess with oil at all though.
What's the advantage to that setup then? One motor wouldn't have the frictional losses or the maintenance costs. Unless you can't get one motor to do what those three will do.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:44 PM   #358
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What's the advantage to that setup then? One motor wouldn't have the frictional losses or the maintenance costs. Unless you can't get one motor to do what those three will do.
You can't get one motor to do what those three will do. Turbos smaller than a semi turbo can't do much off 40kRPM, which is about all you can do with motors this size. The more power the motor has, the slower it is in general.

Edit: Keep in mind each one of the motors I am wanting to use is more than double the power of the Phantom motor.
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Old 09-08-2013, 06:04 PM   #359
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So I spent some more time on cad this weekend, did a little more. This is still based on random dimensions, but I was playing around with ways I could have 4 mounting points but still fit three motors so that I could use the same full base and mounts and just switch motor plates when going through different numbers of motors.

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Old 09-09-2013, 10:41 AM   #360
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Raw materiels have arrived for making the backplate and shaft of the compressor. I also have received the rest of the hardware bits, bearings, and some of the electrical parts.

Edit: Now I just need to find some time to get to the shop and machine them. Hopefully later this week.

1/2" aluminum plate for the backplate, and 10mm steal shaft.

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Old 09-09-2013, 10:47 AM   #361
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I had some time today so I took a stab at the three motor concept. This is nothing like the power that @rusty959 is planning but it's the same general idea. It's a simple 2:1 gear ratio so nothing outrageous. I'm using 39mm Turnigy SK3 EDF for the motors in this design which would give it a no load output of 72,000 RPM.

I have no plans to actually build it but if anyone else is interested it's a start.

what?! you won't build it? I'm so disappointed. that's what I was expecting.
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:57 AM   #362
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what?! you won't build it? I'm so disappointed. that's what I was expecting.
LOL, I'll still be building my single motor design. I just did this to get a better feel for @rusty959's 3 motor concept.

My general feel for the 3 motor concept is that the forces involved will either cause it to self destruct right away, or after a very short period of operation. Rusty is thinking that because they have hobby gears they run with these motors that they will work for this application. The thing to remember is in RC applications they are using the gears to step down the motor speed. I've never seen a RC application where they have stepped up the speed, and especially not into the 100K RPM range.

That said I would love to see it succeed and will be watching his progress with much interest. And if someone else wants to use my 3 motor design I'd be happy to share the CAD design, and list of parts.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:46 AM   #363
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Yeup that sounds about right. Ill be running them about 3ish times faster than they are typically running in an r/c car, and am using an assumption that they have a decent factor of safety built in.
I don't expect it to just self destruct, unless the bearings go. Then who knows. However, I do expect some extra wear, and exactly how fast that wear is will determine success in my mind.
Regardless, I will be doing a significant amount of bench testing in a safe area before I let it get near my engine bay, lol.
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:30 PM   #364
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I'm just waiting on some parts so I can do a final fit test with the O-Ring.

Whats the accuracy and finish of the direct metal printing? I was planning on just milling it but if you're offering...

The shaft will have to be turned on the lathe to get the strength and accuracy needed.
Depending on what your needing we are accurate down to .001 inch. Its not as strong as billet buts its full density. send me a part and i will let you know.
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