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Old 03-07-2020, 08:43 PM   #43
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LOL -4* camber.. My tires are already getting wasted running barely over -2* front. Tho the OE front bushing are probably not helping out in that department, so hopefully that improves after I press in some new ones. Then maybe I'll feel more comfortable with adding back some negative camber.
@strat61caster You've never considered upping the front spring? I would think increasing the front would have similar effect as a big bar and retain some more independent articulation with a smaller bar. I suppose its nice to be able to dial in the roll stiffness track or roadside with adjustable bars. That's definite advantage.
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Old 03-07-2020, 08:51 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by BlueWhelan View Post
As Strat asked, what camber are you running in front?

I run BRZ front and '13 rear springs as well with a Perrin 19...with -2 camber the front isnt that understeery.

The rear sway bar motion ratio is pretty mild compared to the springs, so if you soften (or remove) the rear bar it won’t take out that much spring from the system. You probably won’t be on the bump stops much more than you already are (given that these cars are already very bump stop active), however the balance will shift to even more understeer. If that’s what you are looking to avoid, then it’s probably not the best option. I’d say add more camber, depending on where you’re already at.

Edit: ah you beat me to the post and answered my question.


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From experience, that bit of rear roll stiffness added from the stock 14mm make a pretty big difference staying off the bumpstops. Particularly when you taking long sweeping turns, but rear grip especially mid-corner and at corner exit (on throttle) is excellent before it bottoms out. I'd wager upping the rear spring to make up for the missing rear sway, I can still retain some of that rear end feel and grip with less bottoming out.
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:15 AM   #45
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From experience, that bit of rear roll stiffness added from the stock 14mm make a pretty big difference staying off the bumpstops. Particularly when you taking long sweeping turns, but rear grip especially mid-corner and at corner exit (on throttle) is excellent before it bottoms out. I'd wager upping the rear spring to make up for the missing rear sway, I can still retain some of that rear end feel and grip with less bottoming out.


Oohhh I don’t personally recommend removing the rear bar! I personally upped the rear to the ‘17MY 15mm bar because I prefer how it feels. My only intention in the above was to imply that the sways add significantly less spring to the rear than front, so you can get away with it just fine if rear grip is the issue. In these cars, if you’re cornering, you’re on the bumps, period. Being on a stiffer rear bar isn’t going to keep you off the bump stops, but it will have other benefits. For me those benefits are appreciated.

If I had a proper rear clutch pack rear dif, I’d go back to the softer 17MY rear springs and up the rear sway bar further, personally. My application is that of a daily driver in Los Angeles though, so I’m a bit compromised in what I’ll put up with.


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Old 03-08-2020, 09:12 AM   #46
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I had 9k springs on all corners, and was using the stock '13 front bar (18mm), and a Mann Engineering rear bar on the medium setting. I was trying to use more spring and less bar, because I wanted the independent articulation.

I couldn't get my settings right to dial out understeer in long sweepers, though. There could be multiple causes, like damping curve in the struts' valving, or alignment. In autocross, I didn't like the understeer, but on track it felt a little better.

I'm going to a more proven setup for autocross in 2020 with a softer front spring and stiffer front bar. I had -3.8 camber last year, but I'm changing to over -4 this year.

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Old 03-08-2020, 10:00 AM   #47
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@solidONE yes, I've run from 325#-500# in the front and am likely ordering another pair of springs to for more experimentation.
I don't think I use that big of a bar, up until last weekend I was on a 20mm and just switched to karcepts bar set to a similar stiffness as the 20mm on stiff which is about middle of the new bar.

My point was just because the OE sent the car out with a certain bar stiffness differential doesn't mean it's the best when you start messing with the car.
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Old 03-08-2020, 11:46 AM   #48
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Oohhh I don’t personally recommend removing the rear bar! I personally upped the rear to the ‘17MY 15mm bar because I prefer how it feels. My only intention in the above was to imply that the sways add significantly less spring to the rear than front, so you can get away with it just fine if rear grip is the issue. In these cars, if you’re cornering, you’re on the bumps, period. Being on a stiffer rear bar isn’t going to keep you off the bump stops, but it will have other benefits. For me those benefits are appreciated.

If I had a proper rear clutch pack rear dif, I’d go back to the softer 17MY rear springs and up the rear sway bar further, personally. My application is that of a daily driver in Los Angeles though, so I’m a bit compromised in what I’ll put up with.


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Honestly. Is stock suspension really that good for DD? If we want to stay on OEM components there is only so much we can do beside modifying OEM parts physically.

If your reasoning is to retain stock height for clearance, going to a flex-z or ST or Kw entry level coils set at stock height, I can pretty much guarantee you will have a better ride than stock. The reason why I say this is because I've tried all three i mentioned above and they all ride better than stock.. lol

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I had 9k springs on all corners, and was using the stock '13 front bar (18mm), and a Mann Engineering rear bar on the medium setting. I was trying to use more spring and less bar, because I wanted the independent articulation.

I couldn't get my settings right to dial out understeer in long sweepers, though. There could be multiple causes, like damping curve in the struts' valving, or alignment. In autocross, I didn't like the understeer, but on track it felt a little better.

I'm going to a more proven setup for autocross in 2020 with a softer front spring and stiffer front bar. I had -3.8 camber last year, but I'm changing to over -4 this year.

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Just thinking out loud. I wonder how much of that understeer is from the driver? I'm talking about myself here. Also does more aggressive alignment cause you to drive more aggressively? (Also talking about myself here)

Just for shits-n-giggles.. and 'science'. Have you tried running it without a front bar? You probably dont need or want as much articulation in the front as the back, but just to see what happens.

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@solidONE yes, I've run from 325#-500# in the front and am likely ordering another pair of springs to for more experimentation.
I don't think I use that big of a bar, up until last weekend I was on a 20mm and just switched to karcepts bar set to a similar stiffness as the 20mm on stiff which is about middle of the new bar.

My point was just because the OE sent the car out with a certain bar stiffness differential doesn't mean it's the best when you start messing with the car.
right. Springs first then bars. And when you modify suspension typically you'd increase the coil spring rate or only when you dont have that option you'd go to the sway bars for added stiffness and fine tuning. Are you wishing you had some compression adjustment in your front shocks yet? On my friends ND we're looking into adding some schrader valves to add and adjust the gass pressure in the front shocks. Tho, his dampers are dang near perfect IMO. His shocks looks a lot like your shocks. lol
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:52 PM   #49
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Not really, playing with double adjustables you just throw comp at it until it gets harsh, if it lets you get that far, rebound has bigger impacts on dynamics you can feel.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:21 PM   #50
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Honestly. Is stock suspension really that good for DD? If we want to stay on OEM components there is only so much we can do beside modifying OEM parts physically.

If your reasoning is to retain stock height for clearance, going to a flex-z or ST or Kw entry level coils set at stock height, I can pretty much guarantee you will have a better ride than stock. The reason why I say this is because I've tried all three i mentioned above and they all ride better than stock.. lol

OEM is not the best for compliance, no argument there. However, the biggest variable for me is also the one you're leaving out...cost. Alas, funding other life events comes first. When the time comes I'll put some money down, though I'd rather get an OS Giken than coilovers personally.

Also, let me clarify that I wouldn't recommend removing the rear bar on OEM springs. To that degree I totally agree with you that more spring in the rear sans a SW would work just fine. It would also help the rear Torsen by keeping the rear independence.
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:33 PM   #51
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I would like to add my experiences with different spring rates and different sway bars configurations

1° setup
Tein Flex Z with stock sway bars (MY14)
Alignment:
Camber -3F -2.1R
Toe 0°F 0.1°R
Car was easy to drive and quite fast but a little pushy, not very fun

2° setup
Same as before but with 8k rear springs
Car was very fun to drive with some oversteer during turn-in and in long radius turn, perfectly balanced on gas in short radius turn, a blast to drive on street (mountain pass and so on).
Car felt faster than before but tire wear in the back was a problem, this setup need more static camber

3° setup
Same as before but without rear sway bar
The rear is very slow and heavy during turn-in, balance in long radius turn and especially applying some gas is wonderful, very good traction, tire wear is perfect, but the overall feeling is that the car is slower than before

Next step: reconnect swaybar and add some rear lca to add some camber
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Old 03-08-2020, 07:44 PM   #52
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For sure, solidONE, driver has an impact. Sometimes it's me causing the understeer issue.
One of my friends wanted me to try disconnecting the front sway bar when I had the 9k springs, but I didn't. It seemed too extreme.

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Old 03-09-2020, 03:39 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by BlueWhelan View Post
OEM is not the best for compliance, no argument there. However, the biggest variable for me is also the one you're leaving out...cost. Alas, funding other life events comes first. When the time comes I'll put some money down, though I'd rather get an OS Giken than coilovers personally.

Also, let me clarify that I wouldn't recommend removing the rear bar on OEM springs. To that degree I totally agree with you that more spring in the rear sans a SW would work just fine. It would also help the rear Torsen by keeping the rear independence.
I feel you. Why do you think I'm on stock coilovers now? Low cost, readily available parts and no hassle. I don't mind spending extra on dampers if I'm going to be happy with them. As opposed to saving a few hundred or more for something just okay.

Nobody suggested that you recommend removing the rear bar. lol If anything I recommend people who have not tried unhooking the rear sway to experiment with this.. just not on stock springs. Its free to try. Unless you dont have tools then it cost whatever the cost of a 14mm wrench to remove the nut costs.
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Old 03-09-2020, 09:20 AM   #54
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Guys that run big front bar and small rear. What's keeping you from running higher front coil spring rates instead?

On stock components pieced together. BRZ front, FRS Rear springs rates off the first generation and newer shocks. I've gone with a 19mm perrin and felt too 'pushy' for my use even at the softer setting. I'm sure its much different for autocross use and with double or triple the spring stiffness.

I do like the idea of soft rear sway bar or even delete as Robispec ran back when this car just came out. With stock springs it would just bottom out without the rear sway. Really good traction on the throttle before it hits the bumpstops tho.
Because the setup works?

There becomes a point where calculator and spreadsheets only take you so far, then there is actual experience.

You can't mimic a front bar with springs though, it's not a complete translation. Develop the car with springs in mind to tackle pitch and dive, ride height, how the car deals with single and multi-wheel bumps. From there, bars are the answer to deal with isolating roll stiffness.

The one thing springs doesn't offer you is the tuning ability run to run to dynamically change the behavior of the car. Swapping bar holes I can make a pretty drastic behavioral change to how my car reacts on a specific surface depending on multiple variables.

Personally, I've always liked softer springs because I like to run lots of shock. I've always gone with the rule of thumb that you want to achieve the softest spring package paired with bar whenever possible.

IMO - if you're trying to combat body roll with stiffer springs you're doing it wrong.

I posted this video elsewhere yesterday on FB but I think it's pretty helpful here:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj1OJr2NwzE[/ame]

How would my car react if I had say #100 more spring?


PS - I run -4.2* Camber and my tire wear is very well. If you're roasting tires with less camber that should identify setup issues for you immediately
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Old 03-09-2020, 09:53 AM   #55
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@solidONE and for everyone else who wanted to know for "shits and gigles"

I did try a bunch of different setups concerning spring rates and sway bars, including disconnecting the bar up front. It was not a good time. The car felt a lot softer up front and a bit better on turn in, but it would wash out hard mid corner and it was actually completely lifting the rear inside wheels on turns. Basically this means it was much slower, because you couldnt get the power down until after the apex when you started to unwind the wheel and the rear started to gain some load for the inside wheel to come down. It was not a very pleasant experience, maybe it will work on the rain or on very shitty tires, but on a proper setup with grippy tires, no front bar is a big no no for me.

At the same time, I do know of someone who runs no front bar and is very quick as well, but his spring rates are a bit out of whack (I think 10k up front and 6k or 8k on the rear). So in his case, it works because of the spring rates, and not the other way around.
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Old 03-09-2020, 10:29 AM   #56
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Because the setup works?

There becomes a point where calculator and spreadsheets only take you so far, then there is actual experience.

You can't mimic a front bar with springs though, it's not a complete translation. Develop the car with springs in mind to tackle pitch and dive, ride height, how the car deals with single and multi-wheel bumps. From there, bars are the answer to deal with isolating roll stiffness.

The one thing springs doesn't offer you is the tuning ability run to run to dynamically change the behavior of the car. Swapping bar holes I can make a pretty drastic behavioral change to how my car reacts on a specific surface depending on multiple variables.

Personally, I've always liked softer springs because I like to run lots of shock. I've always gone with the rule of thumb that you want to achieve the softest spring package paired with bar whenever possible.

IMO - if you're trying to combat body roll with stiffer springs you're doing it wrong.
Hear, hear! Oversprung and underdampened is what I see most of the time. Sway bars seem to be underutilized for roll control..
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