Capacitors on factory dash speakers

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by soundman98

speakers are speakers, but many parameters are still important. off-axis frequency response for starters is very important to understanding what it will actually sound like when installed in less-ideal positions.

i'm not an extreme 'number' kind of guy(i end up google-searching diymobileaudio every time for the specifics), but there's also multiple ways to use the t/s parameters to better understand how specific speakers will also handle not being in a tuned enclosure (very simply--part of enclosure design is to provide a specific amount of resistance against cone movement to alter it's response). certain speakers handle that better than others based on mechanical design.

According to this "You can never have too much power" referring to amp power..

By Alan Lofft supposedly:

The lesson in all this is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers. In the scheme of high fidelity, that last barrier to realism is having enough power and being able to approximate real-life loudness levels. The lesson in all this is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers. In the scheme of high fidelity, that last barrier to realism is having enough power and being able to approximate real-life loudness levels.

Ill just have to try both ways and decide for myself. lmao

You think its a better option to go with something like this than this? Or would a headunit with these functions suffice?

[sharpsicle]

Originally Posted by solidONE

When properly set up is the key. You can get a massive amp and then just keep the gain turned way the hell down. But then, why spend the money on the massive amp?

Excess power always carries the potential for damage. Big amplifiers absolutely can cause damage when not set up properly.

[bcj]

Arcing across the cabin from left channel to right channel ...
woo

Only works when plugged into the 240V charging station though.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by sharpsicle

When properly set up is the key. You can get a massive amp and then just keep the gain turned way the hell down. But then, why spend the money on the massive amp?

Excess power always carries the potential for damage. Big amplifiers absolutely can cause damage when not set up properly.

Makes sense. I think the reasoning behind recommending 50% or 100% more power than the speaker can handle is to ensure you have cushion in available power to adjust to where there is no possibility of clipping due to under power or too much power. There is no way for you to achieve that setting with an amp that only puts out 50% of the total RMS of the speakers.

I don't regret trading in the 4x50w for the 4x100w (even the restocking fee). I've got 100w rms components and 30w rms fullrange. I can do 130w rms per channel if I hook up the dash speaker to the amp instead of headunit power. Or I can port 200W per channel against 100w or 130w rms of speaker. I have a lot of flexibility to try different ways of hooking up to the amp.

Appreciate it fellas! I have good feeling about my 'corona sound system' upgrades.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by bcj

Arcing across the cabin from left channel to right channel ...
woo

Only works when plugged into the 240V charging station though.

i'd be lying if i said i hadn't considered teslacoil tweeters from time to time!
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UECWVlMTI3I[/ame]

Originally Posted by solidONE

You think its a better option to go with something like this than this? Or would a headunit with these functions suffice?

it looks like my past...

so i started off with a set of 5-1/4" pioneer REV-series components(TS-C130's). first car, first sound build, first job making any sort of money. i actually went into a car audio shop knowing nothing and told them to give me the best speakers they could for $300... in a convertible, driven by a "300 watt" obscure thrift store amp, through the passive crossovers like in your second link.

things went well until i was doing 60mph(lol) on the highway and tried turning it up. the tweeters distorted horribly. i dealt with it(and blew up 2 or 3 amps tinkering).

it wasn't until i installed the same component speakers into my 2nd car, and then started seriously chasing the gremlins that caused that distortion that i really looked into it further. at the time, i fully believed that it was a signal issue, so everything up to the passive crossovers was changed. new hu, new interconnects (monster audio zn6's instead of walmart versions even!) new amp power wire, different amps, and a 6v preamp on top of all of it to feed an overly-healthy signal into all the amps. it's safe to say i sort of went "thor's hammer" on the problem. and the distortion still persisted.

that was when i came to the realization that the issue was that the matching pioneer-supplied crossovers had too low of a tweeter crossover point. so the tweeters were attempting to play below their frequency range...

this conclusion brought me to purchasing your first link-- the clarion mcd360 3-way crossover, was somewhat new to the market.

i special-ordered it through a friend's friend that ran a small audio shop. 3-way networks were relatively new in the early 2000's outside of serious show rigs, so most places didn't even bother stocking such a product.

that was the point that i went full-active, specifically so i could adjust the tweeters crossover point to something higher than what the passive crossover had.

i was very happy with the clarion crossover. it did everything i needed it to with the frequency multiplier on the 1-2 channel. but it's a pain to adjust.
a typical adjustment session went like this: listen, get out, run around to trunk, adjust, run back, sit down, decide it's not enough of an adjustment, run back, etc, etc.

now i've moved on from the clarion crossover to head unit or bluetooth versions that do all that and more!
my car uses a pioneer 80prs and it's built-in crossover controls.
my pickup truck uses a pioneer 80prs that feeds a dayton dsp-408(with the bluetooth dongle so i use my phone to do what i want when i want from the listening position).





after that long path i took, i highly recommend starting with either the dayton dsp or the minidsp alternative. i specifically chose the dayton version because it was cheaper, and i really only needed/wanted the crossover and eq controls. there's been some debate here and there that the minidsp has a better sound, though some of it i believe is audio elitism (the religion that fundamentally, something cheaper cannot ever sound better than something more expensive)

dsp's are stupid-powerful, don't cost much more than the clarion crossover-only, and it gives you a ton of options well and above what most could ever need to tinker with later, which is exactly where i prefer my equipment to be-- where i'm not immediately using every available feature to their fullest extent.

[solidONE]

@soundman98 how long have you been running the dayton dsp? Seems a few people have had it go out on them after some use.

Going along with the idea of spending a few bux extra for the DSP, if the signal processing function of a headunit works just as well, why bother with the extra redundant adjustments with an external unit? Is he sound quality superior with these DSP's vs your average or higher end head units?

edit: I wanted to also mention.. It appears the door speaker and the tweeter are NOT powered together with the factory wiring. Not sure where I read that it was. The dash and tweets is one circuit and the door is a separate channel.. Short story, I wired the 3" dayton speaker using the factory connections and factory head unit. Noticeable improvement, though I skipped using the factory capacitor and went with a bass blocker. Sound great all the way up to max volume, but I think the tweeter was starting to ring a bit at maximum volume. Would recommend this upgrade by its self. Low buck way to improve sound easily.

[LimitedSlip]

This diagram shows how the dash and door speakers are wired. The dash tweeter and mid-range speakers are both 4 ohms. These two speakers are also essentially wired in parallel with the input to the trunk amp. Together, this presents a 2 ohm load to the HU (assuming the input impedance of the trunk amp is somewhat higher than 4 ohms - which is likely). So, the HU front speaker outputs are driving all six speakers with an amp between the head unit and the door speakers. This means that with factory wiring, whatever adjustments (tone, balance, delay, etc.) that you apply to the front HU output will be applied to all six speakers.
This is kind of an unusual arrangement but it works.

[LimitedSlip]

@solidONE - When you connected the 3" Dayton speakers did you essentially replace the factory 4" mid-range, leaving the factory tweeter in place? Or did you remove both the tweeter and the factory mid-range? How is the volume output of the Daytons compared to the door speakers? Are they fairly balanced or are the Daytons quieter than factory, etc? Using the factory wiring there is no way to adjust the volume balance between any of the six speakers but maybe you don't need to?


Thanks!

[solidONE]

Okay that make sense. The door speaker work with the dash and tweet disconnected, but the dash speaker will not get power unless the tweeter is also connected. This is why It seems to be a different circuit.

It was just a simple replacement of the factory "3.5" (cone is same size as my 3" dayton). Sound is more crisp and clear while slightly louder than stock, maybe. Sound pretty balanced to my ear. Wil have to try with the tweeters bypassed ala soundman98.

3 parameters for choosing this speaker. Power handling (30wrms), flat response and good off axis response, then cost. For $12 a speaker, I'm pretty surprised. Or maybe the stock just really suck.

Edit: @LimitedSlip I just got done "auditioning" the sound with and without the tweeter. Did this by keeping the tweeter in the passenger side channel and bypassing it in the driver side. Here what I found:

1. The side with the tweeter bypass plays a bit louder. No surprise.

2. Sampling some smooth k-pop R&B styling of DEAN and his broad vocal range. The tweeter channel sounded more 'complex'? here was more definition like in a larger room or concert hall ( this is with all of the bass boost turned off or into the min setting and rear channels completely off. ).

The no tweeter side sounded more natural, like he is sitting right in font of me singing than in a concert hall. The tweeter side sounded "larger?" The no tweeter side I feel lacked some high frequency response. With a different dash speaker with better off axis high end response would probably do better than the one I have without a tweeter.

[solidONE]

I didnt want to veer too far off from 4ohm speakers at the time, but I've been eyeing this one to experiment with in the future. Using the little that I know about looking at the specs, this one looks the business.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by solidONE

@soundman98 how long have you been running the dayton dsp? Seems a few people have had it go out on them after some use.

Going along with the idea of spending a few bux extra for the DSP, if the signal processing function of a headunit works just as well, why bother with the extra redundant adjustments with an external unit? Is he sound quality superior with these DSP's vs your average or higher end head units?

i haven't had any issues with mine, but i'm just a sample size of one.

i can only speak of the pioneer versions i've got experience with, but i know the kenwood versions have almost identical specifications on paper. i wouldn't count alpines IMprint version as a hu option, as that requires an external processor to make function--IMprint actually drove me to building a full-active car pc back before pioneer and kenwood came out with full active versions of head unit...

anyways, overall the dsp has the same features on paper. but my experience is that it does all of those things better. with a more infinite array of adjustment options.


my first and primary issue with full active with the pioneer is an extremely limited crossover selection. from the manual:

Low LPF: 25—31.5—40—50—63—80—100—125—160—200—250 (Hz)
Mid HPF: 25—31.5—40—50—63—80—100—125—160—200—250 (Hz)
Mid LPF: 1.25k—1.6k—2k—2.5k—3.15k—4k—5k—6.3k—8k—10k—12.5k(H z)
HighHPF: 1.25k—1.6k—2k—2.5k—3.15k—4k—5k—6.3k—8k—10k—12.5k(H z)

alternatively, running it in non-network mode, the front/rear speakers can be set to the following high pass crossovers:
50—63—80—100—125—160—200 (Hz)

for most people, this is fine. in the car, the speakers are fine with those limitations. but i'm not most people. the truck runs these for the mid/tweeters.. they are not happy at 200hz. they buzz. they needed to be ran at 400hz high pass, with a slightly steeper 18/db curve. the dsp allowed me to tailor this to suit the exact issues and correct for it.

the second issue that was also contributed to the first issue is that hu eq is a singular eq. any setting is applied globally to all speakers. so despite a 200 hz, 12db/oct high pass, the +2 eq bump i added at 50hz and 80hz for the door speakers(which handled it perfectly fine) also affected how much my mids buzzed, but it also affects the sub, which doesn't need that bass boost. with the dsp, each set of linked pairs of outputs has it's own parametric(adjustable frequency) eq that is unaffected by any other speaker. so my door speakers get a bump, but my mids get a flat signal.


the dsp also played a critical role in my tinkering when setting up the trucks sub.
i'm using a (horrible, terrible, no-good) sound stream usb10p 'underseat subwoofer' due to space constraints and my own curiosity in new equipment that promise things that deny physics. the dsp made what was a hunk of of electrical components into something that has been faked into sorta working. it required a 35hz/24db hp, 74hz/12db lp and some very dramatic eq-ing to further dump any frequency under 35hz, or above 75hz, but +6db to any frequency from 40hz to 65hz. if i hadn't gone with the dsp before getting the sub, it wouldn't have lasted a week before i built a burning effigy out of it to publicly mock sound stream.


with my pioneer, i've never gotten time alignment to work great. every time i try it, i get headaches from the psychoacoustics, and the sound becomes very noticeably processed and tinny. but i've never tried to align it automatically. sometimes it starts sounding right, but the headache indicates that it's literally because my brain is working too hard to make it sound right...

the dsp offers a few different ways to tune the time alignment, where the hu only offers 'inch' measurements. i'm using it right now to delay the sub to make it better blend using the millisecond delay version.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by soundman98

for most people, this is fine. in the car, the speakers are fine with those limitations. but i'm not most people. the truck runs these for the mid/tweeters.. they are not happy at 200hz. they buzz. they needed to be ran at 400hz high pass, with a slightly steeper 18/db curve. the dsp allowed me to tailor this to suit the exact issues and correct for it.

So these funky speakers actually sound good? These flat panel drives have the best looking off axis performance of all the speaker types, but shyed away from them after reading a couple reviews that said sounded funky. Maybe they just didnt set them up right. I think these would work even better in the dash or side locations.

I suppose the unit can be used to support the dash speaker power and crossover. The DSP take care of everything else powered by the amp. Clear path for upgrade regardless if you install DSP or headunit first and not both.

[soundman98]

i have a set of those too

haven't tried them in the car, they're installed in some oddball free-air enclosures from an estate sale. bass response is really good for a 3" driver, they have a nice neutral overall sound. the off-axis response is really curious to play with, as they're almost entirely non-directional unlike most other speaker designs

[solidONE]

That opens up even more options for me. Noice. I know you have not heard a tweeter you liked. Do you have ny experience with the Planner Tweeters?