Potential Cause of rumored GR86’s blown engine? Seal packing(RTV) was peeled off

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Petah78

If this was the case, there is no need for an oil filter at all. I am sure there was enough flow to carry the debris/contaminates to the filter even at the "granny" aka, normal driving rpms. Plus, any higher pressure and the filter will go into bypass mode anyways. I will likely do the same with the oil filter of the 2nd change and the car will be opened up then. Can always report back then but it will likely be next year.

Actually, the engine would have been subjected to high pressure/flow already, aka cold start up. But yes, heat cycling is missing from the equation.

[FrickingReallySlow]

Most likely we're seeing Subaru switch to multicolor RTV in the middle of production to "debug" a sealant issue. They probably found out something, switched to multicolor to find out which sealant affected the oil passage/pickup blockage the most. Maybe like red for blockhalf, green for upper oil pan etc. looks like not everyone sees the multicolor yet.


@Petah78 if you look around your valve cover / timing cover do you see any different coloring of RTV?

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by FrickingReallySlow

@Petah78 if you look around your valve cover / timing cover do you see any different coloring of RTV?

Nada, looking from the top, i am only seeing light grey silicon around the timing cover.

[*Axel]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The whole denial warranty by "altering" or "tampering" with the engine thing could come into play depending on how big a d1ck any individual dealership wants to be so that has to be kept in mid before touching a single bolt!

Since when is removing an oil pan "altering" or "tampering" with the engine? And who started this fearmongering BS? Are you both recommending that people not check an oil screen that's known to be getting clogged due to a faulty manufacturing process? Whoever is pushing this idea seems to have an agenda to influence people to let their engines be ruined by not bothering to even check for a known problem that could lead to catastrophic engine failure.

Originally Posted by Petah78

If you dropped the pan without observing problems and you do find some blockage....Suby/Toyota is not going to replace your engine just because you "found" it. In this scenario, I rather let it blow and get a new engine....Any "unauthorized" work can lead to denial of claim later on.

While I also thought about dropping the pan myself initially learning about this, after some thought, I would highly recommend against it. Just send it hard and hope it blows (or not).

This is extremely bad and irresponsible advice. Drive it hard and let it blow, really? If you document it and take pictures, with other video and image documentation all over the internet, you're saying they will deny warranty claims just because you removed an oil pan yourself?

A screen is not meant to stay obstructed/clogged permanantly with debris.

Even IF removing an oil pan could be considered "altering or tampering with the engine," which I challenge as BS, the faulty manufacturing process causing the oil pickup screen to be clogged prematurely and frequently makes null and void that line item in the warranty pertaining to access and remedy of said problem. Also, it seems farfetched to say that reapplying RTV sealant that was put on wrong at the factory in the first place is "altering or tampering with the engine." With all the pictures and video of sloppy application of RTV, and RTV found in pickup screen and oil filter, they have little to no legs to stand on there.

A warranty is not a writ of a dictator. If something about it isn't fair or just, it would not hold up under scrutiny of law.

Further, I highly doubt either Subaru or Toyota would want or expect anyone to not try to remedy a known issue that could lead to catastrophic engine failure.

On the flip side, there could be tremendous liability issues if someone were to get hurt trying to access and unclog a screen known to be caused by faulty manufacturing process that potentially leads to catastrophic engine failure.

This is a very serious issue.

So tell me, has there been instance of anyone on social media or anywhere else, that removed the oil pan and found no RTV debris in the oil pickup screen? I don't recall seeing any. If everyone looking is finding it, this indicates the problem is very wide spread.

No, I am not a lawyer or an automotive engineer. I'm not giving advice, just calling out BS.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by *Axel

Since when is removing an oil pan "altering" or "tampering" with the engine? ...

No, I am not a lawyer or an automotive engineer. I'm not giving advice, just calling out BS.

Let's go with common sense?

If you pull the oil pan, document that there is no issue (or even if you don't) and later you have an engine failure due to oil starvation, how are you going to prove you didn't cause the problem?

Now, the dealership/Toyota/Subaru may not know you dropped the pan and reapplied the sealant, in which case sure you may get away with it. I suppose you could also use a different color sealant, which may or may not prove your point (it also could disprove your point by being self-incriminating).

No one is saying you don't have the right to do this, or any other service on your vehicle but I don't believe you can say with any more certainty that it won't impact warranty.

If say, you did your own oil change, and inadvertently left a gasket on the oil filter, or forgot to replace the drain plug, and this caused engine damage I doubt it would be covered by warranty. This is the same thing.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by *Axel

Since when is removing an oil pan "altering" or "tampering" with the engine? And who started this fearmongering BS? Are you both recommending that people not check an oil screen that's known to be getting clogged due to a faulty manufacturing process? Whoever is pushing this idea seems to have an agenda to influence people to let their engines be ruined by not bothering to even check for a known problem that could lead to catastrophic engine failure.



This is extremely bad and irresponsible advice. Drive it hard and let it blow, really? If you document it and take pictures, with other video and image documentation all over the internet, you're saying they will deny warranty claims just because you removed an oil pan yourself?

A screen is not meant to stay obstructed/clogged permanantly with debris.

Even IF removing an oil pan could be considered "altering or tampering with the engine," which I challenge as BS, the faulty manufacturing process causing the oil pickup screen to be clogged prematurely and frequently makes null and void that line item in the warranty pertaining to access and remedy of said problem. Also, it seems farfetched to say that reapplying RTV sealant that was put on wrong at the factory in the first place is "altering or tampering with the engine." With all the pictures and video of sloppy application of RTV, and RTV found in pickup screen and oil filter, they have little to no legs to stand on there.

A warranty is not a writ of a dictator. If something about it isn't fair or just, it would not hold up under scrutiny of law.

Further, I highly doubt either Subaru or Toyota would want or expect anyone to not try to remedy a known issue that could lead to catastrophic engine failure.

On the flip side, there could be tremendous liability issues if someone were to get hurt trying to access and unclog a screen known to be caused by faulty manufacturing process that potentially leads to catastrophic engine failure.

This is a very serious issue.

So tell me, has there been instance of anyone on social media or anywhere else, that removed the oil pan and found no RTV debris in the oil pickup screen? I don't recall seeing any. If everyone looking is finding it, this indicates the problem is very wide spread.

No, I am not a lawyer or an automotive engineer. I'm not giving advice, just calling out BS.

I am not convinced you did read the whole thread. Or at least not the whole of each post.
The discussion about warranty denial, specifically for removing, the pan is relevant and necessary. We have already seen denial of warranty for "tampering" many. many times in the past. Hell, there were warranty denials on engines where Subaru techs were the ones that reapplied sealant! To ignore the subject because your opinion is different would be irresponsible.

All I have said was that the LAW on the subject gives them the ability to deny warranty if the engine has been altered by an unauthorized person. This is a fact not an opinion. That does not mean that all dealers WILL deny warranty but it does mean they CAN. Of course you can can argue it but as you said you are not an engineer nor a lawyer whereas Toyota/Subaru has thousands of both. If they want to play hardball on the subject they are going to win no matter what your thoughts on what is "fair". This is not "fear mongering" but simple risk assessment. If you open up your engine you RISK warranty denial. Plain and simple. The even worse part is that removing the blockage on it's own is no guarantee that you have resolved the whole issue.

Not sure how the people that say just drive it and if it blows seek warranty (I have never said that) all of sudden turns into as "an agenda to influence people to let their engines be ruined". It is a valid option even if it is the worst case one.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by FrickingReallySlow

Most likely we're seeing Subaru switch to multicolor RTV in the middle of production to "debug" a sealant issue. They probably found out something, switched to multicolor to find out which sealant affected the oil passage/pickup blockage the most. Maybe like red for blockhalf, green for upper oil pan etc. looks like not everyone sees the multicolor yet.


@Petah78 if you look around your valve cover / timing cover do you see any different coloring of RTV?

They have always used different coloured sealant on different parts of the engine. The colours designate sealants with different properties (i.e. heat resistance, adhesion, flexibility, etc). The whole reason they are different colours is so that they don't get used in the wrong application by mistake.
Keep in mind that the whole engine is sealed with this stuff not just the oil pan and timing cover.

[*Axel]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Let's go with common sense?

If you pull the oil pan, document that there is no issue (or even if you don't) and later you have an engine failure due to oil starvation, how are you going to prove you didn't cause the problem?

Common sense on social media? Good luck finding that.

Because the current issue at hand necessitates an urgency to check for problems that can and have caused catastrophic engine failure. There is plenty of evidence to counter that argument, that the customer/owner caused the failure simply by inspecting for that very problem of improperly applied sealant at the factory clogging the oil pickup screen.

If say, you did your own oil change, and inadvertently left a gasket on the oil filter, or forgot to replace the drain plug, and this caused engine damage I doubt it would be covered by warranty. This is the same thing.

It is NOT the same thing. This is a semantical argument parrotted by social media sh*t stirrers that get off on the idea of gen 2 failures.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Sorry for the delay, i had family in town for the past couple weeks thus the delay in surgery of the oil filter. Below are pics of my factory oil filter that was changed out @ 1k miles.

- There are definitely silicon of all colors (green, red and grey) in there.
- The grey colored were rarer but larger in size.
- When i drained the oil, the kitchen strainer that i used was fine enough that it should have at least caught some of these pieces if there was any. But the strainer didn't catch anything.
- Was driven like a granny since break in. Maybe 20% throttle and no more than 4500 rpms.

THANK YOU!
Although a sample size of one this is a data point that has been missing.
Your finings show exactly what I was afraid of in my earlier essay!
In all probability you had run the engine long enough to catch all the particles so none showed up during your oil change. Of course some would have made it through the whole system but eventually got caught.
To make a wild guess I would say that if your engine is still good now you are probably out of the woods.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by *Axel

Common sense on social media? Good luck finding that.

Because the current issue at hand necessitates an urgency to check for problems that can and have caused catastrophic engine failure. There is plenty of evidence to counter that argument, that the customer/owner caused the failure simply by inspecting for that very problem of improperly applied sealant at the factory clogging the oil pickup screen.



It is NOT the same thing. This is a semantical argument parrotted by social media sh*t stirrers that get off on the idea of gen 2 failures.

It is the same thing. Altering the engine is altering no matter how noble your intentions are.

How the hell does discussion on a subject turn into people wanting to "get off on gen 2 engine failures"? There is an issue. It has many faucets. Those thing are discussed.

Get off your high horse and come to reality.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by *Axel

You have no stake in this. You don't own a car that's affected by this. Yet you are one of the most active commenters on this thread. You come off as a passive aggressive antagonistic social media sh*t stirrer, telling people they void the warranty by removing the oil pan and inspecting and unobstructing the oil pickup screen themselves. Is that not the idea you're pushing by implication? It certainly seems to be so. Are you secretly gloating over 2nd gen owners having major engine issues over flawed assembly application of engine sealants? Perhaps it's time you STFU and MYOFB.

I need a stake it it to discuss it?
Discussing all the aspects of an issue means I am a shit disturber? If you have any clue at all you will see that I am one of the most active commenters on many things. I find it interesting and being in the industry informative.
I repeat I have never once told anybody not to check because they will "void" their warranty. I have said to be aware that they may have problems with the dealerships if they have a failure and do need warranty.
At what point have I given any indication of "gloating" ? That is your own vivid imagination and paranoia at work.

So far you have contributed nothing to this conversation other than to attack me personally. I don't give a rat's ass about your opinions. Let's deal with some facts.

Your post is the sort of crap that gives Boomers a bad name!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by *Axel

Common sense on social media? Good luck finding that.

I said nothing about "social media". You could be troglodyte living in a cave somewhere, if you pull the pan and reseal it yourself you are causing potential warranty issues.

As @Tcoat said, I'm not saying not to do it, I'm saying weigh the risks. Might be worth the money to have the dealer do it, might not be. That's up to the individual to decide.

Originally Posted by *Axel

Because the current issue at hand necessitates an urgency to check for problems that can and have caused catastrophic engine failure. There is plenty of evidence to counter that argument, that the customer/owner caused the failure simply by inspecting for that very problem of improperly applied sealant at the factory clogging the oil pickup screen.

"inspecting the problem" is different than pulling the pan, checking to see if there is an issue, resealing the pan (using the same process as the OEM) and then having an engine failure. If you can't see that we'll agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by *Axel

It is NOT the same thing. This is a semantical argument parrotted by social media sh*t stirrers that get off on the idea of gen 2 failures.

Ugm, OK sure. Feel free to go with that.

BTW, I don't have a stake in this either, other than an interested party. I did live through the valve spring issue, which was very similar (basically the same issue). Fortunately for me I had a competent mechanic who did the repair correctly, but I do feel for those that have failures then and now.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not sure how the people that say just drive it and if it blows seek warranty (I have never said that) all of sudden turns into as "an agenda to influence people to let their engines be ruined". It is a valid option even if it is the worst case one.

In fact, it's the very option a lot of owners chose on the valve spring recall.

[spcmafia]

Originally Posted by *Axel

It doesn't matter what you are convinced of



Wow! No sh*t. It's probably going to keep falling into oil circulation, requiring multiple checks and clearing of obstruction. This doesn't mean one should just let it blow.



You have no stake in this. You don't own a car that's affected by this. Yet you are one of the most active commenters on this thread. You come off as a passive aggressive antagonistic social media sh*t stirrer, telling people they void the warranty by removing the oil pan and inspecting and unobstructing the oil pickup screen themselves. Is that not the idea you're pushing by implication? It certainly seems to be so. Are you secretly gloating over 2nd gen owners having major engine issues over flawed assembly application of engine sealants? Perhaps it's time you STFU and MYOFB.

JFC dude, show me on the doll where the tcoat touched you. Everything okay back at home?