Torque Dip Decisions

[wireman957]

While I do understand there is a torque dip in these cars, it really seems to bother only two types of people. Those who pay way too much attention to what's on paper and those who don't have a clue how to use a transmission for power. It's not that hard to drive around the dip if you want to drive for fun and if you're driving conservatively for mpg the "dip" actually helps you. You just have to realize that you can't be cruising at 3k RPM and expect to just mash the gas pedal to go gonzo. Manual transmission sports cars have been that way since they were invented. Just learn how to drive the damn car!

[FR-S Future Owner]

Originally Posted by Mim

Perhaps us folk from the land down under have it a little better than others https://www.hertz.com.au/rentacar/pr...adrenaline.jsp

A quick internet rental search was not helpful. It appears the major US rental agencies don't offer the FR-S/BRZ.

Originally Posted by Mim

You realize there is nothing broken about the car? Hundreds of thousands of people from around the world drive the car stock and are totally satisfied.

Yes, I do. Understood. However, apparently some enthusiasts (see poll results) wish to remedy this particular aspect.
See also:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM_QmVF2-fQ"]Searching for Torque - Header & Exhaust - FR-S Long Term #4 - Everyday Driver - YouTube[/ame]

Originally Posted by Mim

I care about factory warranty, but still viewed all the mods in my signature as having negligible impact on it and some change the handling, throttle response and improve acceleration, but introduce no added emissions or NVH. At the end of the day any mod can effect your factory warranty. If still wanting to go ahead and mod anyway then its a game of performing due diligence around what impact a mod will have on the car's reliability and if it's worth the risk of making it. For instance I will not touch the ECU so flashing is out of the question. This, by extension, rules out going for headers, which remove the torque dip. Risks with moding can also be mitigated by having professionals install the top quality parts you purchase.

Excellent, sounds like a win-win! I share many of your automotive priorities. You've obviously put a great deal of careful consideration into your FR-S build especially the Cusco 4.556 FD and the Driveshaft Shop Aluminium shaft.

Originally Posted by Mim

Everyone's view on acceptable risk is different, but at the end of the day if this is going to be a daily driver then wait for the MY17 cars and just buy the latest most up to date iteration and enjoy it as is. It has quite a few updates over the past releases and will likely keep you happy for the handful of years its covered by warranty.

MY17 is certainly an option. However, the new FR_S grill is not as appealing. This aspect may help BRZ sales.

On the manual version of the car, additional performance comes from a gear ratio change and a torque increase to 156 lb.-ft, as well as a five-horsepower increase to 205 hp.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...nyias-2016.htm

1. Are the gear ratio changes in the MT, the diff, or both?
2. What changes were made to increase the HP & TQ?

Originally Posted by Mim

Fantastic point! I don't mind the torque dip as it's really just part of the whole fun of learning the characteristics of your car and, though I drive an A/T, I still need to pay attention to the gear and RPM's I'm at (while in sports mode) if I want to avoid the dip.

When I updated the final drive ratio it was specifically to increase low down torque and improve throttle response, not anything to do with fixing the dip, but in retrospect it helped mask it to an extent as each gear became shorter / accelerated faster. The tiny torque dip window effectively became smaller and less noticeable.

Sounds like Toyota/Subaru may have copied your final drive ratio idea for the 2017 model.

If I purchase a gen1 with a 6-spd MT, I wonder what FD ratio would improve the low-end torque of it?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by FR-S Future Owner

A quick internet rental search was not helpful. It appears the major US rental agencies don't offer the FR-S/BRZ.


Yes, I do. Understood. However, apparently some enthusiasts (see poll results) wish to remedy this particular.

As I said in another thread you came to the Internet to ask about an issue. The most verbal people will be those that think it is indeed an issue. To accept those responses as fact can lead you astray. At this point in this thread all I see is you trying to find support for your own preconceived thought and no matter how many people say otherwise you will go with those that agree with it.

Go drive the damned car and THEN decide if you have a problem with it the bloody pole means nothing other than that the guys that think it there is an issue are more willing to click on a button.

[FR-S Future Owner]

Originally Posted by wireman957

While I do understand there is a torque dip in these cars, it really seems to bother only two types of people. Those who pay way too much attention to what's on paper and those who don't have a clue how to use a transmission for power. It's not that hard to drive around the dip if you want to drive for fun and if you're driving conservatively for mpg the "dip" actually helps you. You just have to realize that you can't be cruising at 3k RPM and expect to just mash the gas pedal to go gonzo. Manual transmission sports cars have been that way since they were invented. Just learn how to drive the damn car!

Have you seen this video?
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM_QmVF2-fQ"]Searching for Torque - Header & Exhaust - FR-S Long Term #4 - Everyday Driver - YouTube[/ame]

Stereotyping people is simplistic, counterproductive, diminishes understanding, and pushes people away. You know nothing about me. Years ago, I drove a low-powered 1.5 L 5-sp MT Toyota for 370k miles. Thus, I'm well aware of the importance of downshifting for acceleration.

I've not yet had the pleasure of driving a BRZ/FR-S. Having seen this video, caused me to start this thread to find out more about this topic.

[FR-S Future Owner]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

As I said in another thread you came to the Internet to ask about an issue. The most verbal people will be those that think it is indeed an issue. To accept those responses as fact can lead you astray. At this point in this thread all I see is you trying to find support for your own preconceived thought and no matter how many people say otherwise you will go with those that agree with it.

Go drive the damned car and THEN decide if you have a problem with it the bloody pole means nothing other than that the guys that think it there is an issue are more willing to click on a button.

I don't have any preconceived thoughts about this topic. This thread was based on having seen the Everyday Driver video by Paul Schmucker and Todd Deeken. I joined FT86club because the BRZ/FR-S is very appealing to me and I want to learn more about it. I had hoped to find consensus that the torque dip is not much of an issue to avoid an expensive mod to solve it.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by FR-S Future Owner

I don't have any preconceived thoughts about this topic. This thread was based on having seen the Everyday Driver video by Paul Schmucker and Todd Deeken. I joined FT86club because the BRZ/FR-S is very appealing to me and I want to learn more about it. I had hoped to find consensus that the torque dip is not much of an issue to avoid an expensive mod to solve it.

LOL. You came to the Internet looking for consensus?

[VTEC]

Originally Posted by FR-S Future Owner

I don't have any preconceived thoughts about this topic. This thread was based on having seen the Everyday Driver video by Paul Schmucker and Todd Deeken. I joined FT86club because the BRZ/FR-S is very appealing to me and I want to learn more about it. I had hoped to find consensus that the torque dip is not much of an issue to avoid an expensive mod to solve it.

Everyday driver does most of their reviews along the California Pacific Coast highway. So unless they went out of their way to pick up some octane booster there's a good chance they are driving it on 91 octane fuel. Also California tends to have pretty warm temperatures all year round (lucky for them). Unfortunately for the FA20 engine, warm temperatures and 91 octane fuel makes the torque dip much worse. At least that's what I felt from my experience. Plus on the Pacific Coast highway there's quite a bit of uphill climbs. So I can see why they might feel the car is significantly underpowered.

On level ground, with 93 octane fuel and a manual transmission, I don't think the torque dip is that bad. I mean it's not great either and of course I wish it weren't there at all. But I'm just saying Todd and Paul's experience might be a bit more exaggerated than normal

[Summerwolf]

91 octane vs 93 does not impact a stock cars torque dip performance, lol....

[yip]

Originally Posted by VTEC

Everyday driver does most of their reviews along the California Pacific Coast highway.

Everyday driver does all their reviews in Utah. Pretty sure Paul is buddies with the guys from Integrated Engineering hence why they have reviewed quite a few modified VAG car's.

The torque dip just plain sucks. Even running on E85 with an aftermarket non catted header I still notice it. Especially when I'm running through the gears and I up shift and I'm right in the torque dip rev range.

At the end of the day I can live with it because the car is just plain slow when accelerating and I knew this when I bought it. I have other cars that I can drive when I want to out drag a V6 mustang.... lol.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by FR-S Future Owner

I don't have any preconceived thoughts about this topic. This thread was based on having seen the Everyday Driver video by Paul Schmucker and Todd Deeken. I joined FT86club because the BRZ/FR-S is very appealing to me and I want to learn more about it. I had hoped to find consensus that the torque dip is not much of an issue to avoid an expensive mod to solve it.

Well, now, FR-S Future Owner ...... as ol @Tcoat pointed out, we (the forum) couldn't come to a consensus about ANYTHING ......

Now, about the car's "torque dip" and how it may effect YOU ...... I would suggest you go drive one (since you mentioned you haven't done so) and make up your own mind, whether or not it effects the way YOU want to drive.

After you take a spin, let us know what you feel .......


humfrz

[FR-S Future Owner]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Well, now, FR-S Future Owner ...... as ol @Tcoat pointed out, we (the forum) couldn't come to a consensus about ANYTHING ......

Now, about the car's "torque dip" and how it may effect YOU ...... I would suggest you go drive one (since you mentioned you haven't done so) and make up your own mind, whether or not it effects the way YOU want to drive.

After you take a spin, let us know what you feel .......


humfrz

OK, I'd be happy to tell you all about it.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by FR-S Future Owner

OK, I'd be happy to tell you all about it.

Have a nice drive ....... looking forward to your impressions ......

Oh yes, be forewarned if the A/C is ON ........ the car ain't too peppy at the lower rpms.


humfrz

[krayzie]

I drove a VW 2.0T BPY for almost 7 years and even with a flat torque curve from 1800rpm, everytime I went flat out there was just nothing left after 5000rpm and the feeling sucks donkey ballz. This is one of the main reason I went back to driving a Japanese sports compact as it makes you really work for it. I call this delay gratification.

It's way more fun driving a BRZ and above 5000rpm the car actually keeps going all the way to redline. If I'm just commuting in normal traffic I would have shifted before 4000rpm. I guess I just don't encounter this torque dip much, nor do I care since I bought the car primarily for handling prowess.

If torque dip is considered a deal breaker, would something like a BMW 228i be a better choice? Road and Track Magazine this month rated it higher against the M235i and M2 in terms of fun to drive. But the driving position is kinda crap especially after you sat in the BRZ.

[yip]

Originally Posted by krayzie

I drove a VW 2.0T BPY for almost 7 years and even with a flat torque curve from 1800rpm, everytime I went flat out there was just nothing left after 5000rpm and the feeling sucks donkey ballz. This is one of the main reason I went back to driving a Japanese sports compact as it makes you really work for it. I call this delay gratification.

I currently have an 08 MK2 TT BPY! Something was wrong with your car Acceleration stock it never feels like it goes flat after 5k unless it's 100 degrees outside and the car is heat soaked.

Fact is the torque dip sucks. If there was a fix offered by the dealer for free everyone except lazy ass people would jump on it. It's not so much the lack of torque it's the fact that off idle the torque feels strong then falls off for a second or two them comes back on.

I love my FR-S. Hell I like driving it more than my 96 C4S. I didn't buy it because I wanted a fast car. I bought it because I wanted a daily driver that I could time attack every corner on my way to work like a D-Bag. Luckily everything else about the car offsets the dip issue.