Time to build a motor, what options have others found?

[wsites]

Originally Posted by Cross

You could mount it right before the ground this will not change the location and effects on balance. So again nothing changes that weight is not only added but so is coolant and pressure piping all adding weight and not equally. It also doesn't change where it's added and how that effects more than just the CG but also the balance, here is a simple way to think of this, was a sea-saw all that much fun with a kit 2-3 times your weight when you were in grade school?

Things may seem nice in theory but this idea that the lower it's mounted makes more difference than the weight that's added and where it is added is nothing more than foolish. A more forward mounted lower Boxter vs a more rear mounted 60lbs more LS has a lot more to consider than look one's lower! Look one's also slower, has less power and is harder to get parts for, was any of that valid in the argument?

You're acting like cg means nothing, which is simply not the case. I understand your arguments and I'm glad that you are doing what you want to your vehicle. I simply stated that it was not something I would do. If you want to really get technical front engine vehicles themselves are not optimal at all and if there is any weight bias in a rwd car you want it more towards the rear. I understand the more weight in the front = worse handling, and that the ls1 only weighs like 60 more pounds than the fa20 however that does not account for the transmission and other such needed modifications. I personally do not care for turbo's either, I was just asking a question in my original post and it seems like you're taking it as an offense. If that is the case then I'm sorry.

[wsites]

Originally Posted by Sellout

You were refuting an imagined argument. Read better.

No perhaps you should "read better"... There was certainly a disagreement going on throughout this thread between turboed boxer vs. V8...

[wsites]

Originally Posted by C130NAV

Did eveyone see the new superstreet. LS7 drift BRZ !!!

Yessss!!!! It's awesome! Not something I would do to the car but still

[Cross]

Originally Posted by wsites

You're acting like cg means nothing, which is simply not the case. I understand your arguments and I'm glad that you are doing what you want to your vehicle. I simply stated that it was not something I would do. If you want to really get technical front engine vehicles themselves are not optimal at all and if there is any weight bias in a rwd car you want it more towards the rear. I understand the more weight in the front = worse handling, and that the ls1 only weighs like 60 more pounds than the fa20 however that does not account for the transmission and other such needed modifications. I personally do not care for turbo's either, I was just asking a question in my original post and it seems like you're taking it as an offense. If that is the case then I'm sorry.

Your acting like CG is the only concern, instead of just one piece that isn't always the most important as you have made it out to be.

I didn't take offense I just pointed out you can't focus on one piece as a trump card. This is why I pointed out CG may be nice but the further forward the motor is the worse it is and you just said that yourself as well. Putting a motor thjat ends up sitting higher further back negates any CG gains of putting it further forward was basically my point.

No one said the LS vs FA was only a 60lbs difference they did a weight with corner weights of a Turbo FRS then a LS Swapped FRS. That was an overall.

Honestly I am 70% sold on the LS mainly because I have most everything but it is still easier to put in another FA and call it a day. I just don't want to experience this issue again. I built the car to be completely safe and well... that didn't really happen. If there is a fix for this issue then great I will probably just go back to the FA and be happy as I like the car the way it is. Otherwise I will most likely swap.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Cross

Your acting like CG is the only concern, instead of just one piece that isn't always the most important as you have made it out to be.

I didn't take offense I just pointed out you can't focus on one piece as a trump card. This is why I pointed out CG may be nice but the further forward the motor is the worse it is and you just said that yourself as well. Putting a motor thjat ends up sitting higher further back negates any CG gains of putting it further forward was basically my point.

No one said the LS vs FA was only a 60lbs difference they did a weight with corner weights of a Turbo FRS then a LS Swapped FRS. That was an overall.

Honestly I am 70% sold on the LS mainly because I have most everything but it is still easier to put in another FA and call it a day. I just don't want to experience this issue again. I built the car to be completely safe and well... that didn't really happen. If there is a fix for this issue then great I will probably just go back to the FA and be happy as I like the car the way it is. Otherwise I will most likely swap.

With 21K$ you should be able to build a bullet proof fa20.. and would better maintain all of the handling characteristics at power levels you would have a hard time putting to the ground as it is...

When I was first considering getting this car, I was looking at doing a motor swap, until I saw and learned about all of the benefits of this motor and heard from people who have worked on LOTS of different motors.

When someone who builds subaru race engines, says that the fa20 has a lower CG AND is a better engine for building up than say an fj25, I'll take that advice.

Besides, I think it's much more satisfying to build a 400 or 500 hp 2.0 liter than to slap a 6 liter monster in and say done... besides, yeah it makes 400hp but it's shoe horned in and you limit what you can do to it to get any more out of it.

with 20K to spend you can make a reliable 400+ hp fa20 with room for additional power in the future much easier than making more than the 400hp in the ls...

JM2C

Jaden

[C130NAV]

Actually it was stated a built FA20 cost about 17k so only a 4k difference. There is plenty more you can fo with it. Look at the latest superstreet. Twin turbo ls7 I think thats quite a bit more. However ill be tooling stock ls for the next 3 years to pay off the swap. Lol

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Jaden

With 21K$ you should be able to build a bullet proof fa20.. and would better maintain all of the handling characteristics at power levels you would have a hard time putting to the ground as it is...

When I was first considering getting this car, I was looking at doing a motor swap, until I saw and learned about all of the benefits of this motor and heard from people who have worked on LOTS of different motors.

When someone who builds subaru race engines, says that the fa20 has a lower CG AND is a better engine for building up than say an fj25, I'll take that advice.

Besides, I think it's much more satisfying to build a 400 or 500 hp 2.0 liter than to slap a 6 liter monster in and say done... besides, yeah it makes 400hp but it's shoe horned in and you limit what you can do to it to get any more out of it.

with 20K to spend you can make a reliable 400+ hp fa20 with room for additional power in the future much easier than making more than the 400hp in the ls...

JM2C

Jaden

Did you just pull numbers out of the air and start running with it? 21k WTF are you smoking oh that's right you have to rely on others ability and not your own. Sorry I am not paying someone else to do this when I can do it myself.

You have ignored every fact posted and just made up what suits your argument.

1) The FA is not a better engine, if you are to dense to realize it's another engine then you really need help.
Let's put it this way what car has an FA Swap and went up in value? How many car's get an LS Swap and go up in value, almost all of them. Hell the same is becoming true of Coyote Swaps (That's Ford's 5.0 they offer a complete stand alone setup for any swap desired)

2) The FA has quite a few issues, just like the one this thread was started over concerning a cam issue that caused my failure, but it's ok you can over look that because it does not suit the argument you tried to suddenly walk in and make based off what someone else told you. (Not to mention the TSB's on issues regarding this)

3) When you start at 400+ it's easy to go higher and do so cheaply not to mention the reliability track record of the LS Series or even the Coyote Series. When you start at 200 and break with everything safe then yeah you have a problem. But hey it's the best engine ever!!!!!

4) I have worked on lots of different motors, doesn't mean I know shit about the FA20 or the new Evo motors or any others. Nor does it mean there is enough evidence out and trials with said "New" motor to prove just how well it is or is not built. That takes time and trials obviously of which you have not done.

5) Driver has a lot to do with handling power but if you are losing control of less than 200 at the wheels... then I am sorry but that is entertaining. Boosted I was not in a position where I felt my car could not handle what it was making. N/A Stroker I don't feel that way about my Vette but then again I know how to handle it and realize my gas pedal is not an On/Off Switch...

Really take some further time to think before you just run in all happy to post about something with magical numbers and way off base information. Some of it may have been covered, some of it may have even been dis-proven already and some of it may just be biased worthless personal opinion. Your whole post has reminded me of a moment from The Big Leboski "You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know whats going on"

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Cross

Did you just pull numbers out of the air and start running with it? 21k WTF are you smoking oh that's right you have to rely on others ability and not your own. Sorry I am not paying someone else to do this when I can do it myself.

You have ignored every fact posted and just made up what suits your argument.

1) The FA is not a better engine, if you are to dense to realize it's another engine then you really need help.
Let's put it this way what car has an FA Swap and went up in value? How many car's get an LS Swap and go up in value, almost all of them. Hell the same is becoming true of Coyote Swaps (That's Ford's 5.0 they offer a complete stand alone setup for any swap desired)

2) The FA has quite a few issues, just like the one this thread was started over concerning a cam issue that caused my failure, but it's ok you can over look that because it does not suit the argument you tried to suddenly walk in and make based off what someone else told you. (Not to mention the TSB's on issues regarding this)

3) When you start at 400+ it's easy to go higher and do so cheaply not to mention the reliability track record of the LS Series or even the Coyote Series. When you start at 200 and break with everything safe then yeah you have a problem. But hey it's the best engine ever!!!!!

4) I have worked on lots of different motors, doesn't mean I know shit about the FA20 or the new Evo motors or any others. Nor does it mean there is enough evidence out and trials with said "New" motor to prove just how well it is or is not built. That takes time and trials obviously of which you have not done.

5) Driver has a lot to do with handling power but if you are losing control of less than 200 at the wheels... then I am sorry but that is entertaining. Boosted I was not in a position where I felt my car could not handle what it was making. N/A Stroker I don't feel that way about my Vette but then again I know how to handle it and realize my gas pedal is not an On/Off Switch...

Really take some further time to think before you just run in all happy to post about something with magical numbers and way off base information. Some of it may have been covered, some of it may have even been dis-proven already and some of it may just be biased worthless personal opinion. Your whole post has reminded me of a moment from The Big Leboski "You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know whats going on"

convince yourself of whatever makes you feel better, you're the one who said you were paying someone 18k or 21k to do the install, not me.

Jaden

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by C130NAV

Actually it was stated a built FA20 cost about 17k so only a 4k difference. There is plenty more you can fo with it. Look at the latest superstreet. Twin turbo ls7 I think thats quite a bit more. However ill be tooling stock ls for the next 3 years to pay off the swap. Lol

There's no way in hell, you're fitting a twin turbo LS in the bay of an toyobaru...

That was my main point. You're limited in what total output you can get from the LS. Sure you can throw some nitrous at, a HELL of a lot more than you can at a stock block frs, but I think the differences will be marginal at best for total you can expect to get out of it without the ability to fit a turbo or supercharger without going twin screw and custom hooding it.

Maybe you could get a small twin screw that will fit under the hood, but I doubt it.

Jaden

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Jaden

There's no way in hell, you're fitting a twin turbo LS in the bay of an toyobaru...

That was my main point. You're limited in what total output you can get from the LS. Sure you can throw some nitrous at, a HELL of a lot more than you can at a stock block frs, but I think the differences will be marginal at best for total you can expect to get out of it without the ability to fit a turbo or supercharger without going twin screw and custom hooding it.

Maybe you could get a small twin screw that will fit under the hood, but I doubt it.

Jaden

There is already a turbo ls in a frs guess you missed it.

And you said that much I never did but again it's only go with what supports your completely untrue opinion with no factual basis, the rest of us will live on in the real world kiddo.

When you can factually add something to this thread or answer the points made maybe you can think about contributing again, until then go and up your post count while spreading ignorance elsewhere.

[Jaden]

I don't believe AZ has the restrictions that CA does. When I look at swapping an engine I have to make sure it's available in the same or newer model year as my car.

That's one reason why I bought a 2013, more options for less money if I go that route. luckily the 2JZ is still made, I think I would go that route if I decided to swap. Originally I was thinking doing a 2.5 out of a subaru and make a gt2500 to reference the toyota roots in the gt2000.

Actually I wanted to stroke the fa20, but then I'd have to do a 2100 because it's hard to stroke it any bigger than that. I may still do that eventually.

regardless, I think there are many better options (for me) than going LS or even drifting away from the toyobaru lineage that keeps it in the family...

Jaden

This is all personal preference, there will be iterations that aer slightly advantageous for different aspects with all kinds of different swaps eventually and that's the best thing about this car, it opens itself up to lots of fun for all types.

ToyoBaru twins, the new ultimate in tuner car....

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I don't believe AZ has the restrictions that CA does. When I look at swapping an engine I have to make sure it's available in the same or newer model year as my car.

That's one reason why I bought a 2013, more options for less money if I go that route. luckily the 2JZ is still made, I think I would go that route if I decided to swap. Originally I was thinking doing a 2.5 out of a subaru and make a gt2500 to reference the toyota roots in the gt2000.

Actually I wanted to stroke the fa20, but then I'd have to do a 2100 because it's hard to stroke it any bigger than that. I may still do that eventually.

regardless, I think there are many better options (for me) than going LS or even drifting away from the toyobaru lineage that keeps it in the family...

Jaden

This is all personal preference, there will be iterations that aer slightly advantageous for different aspects with all kinds of different swaps eventually and that's the best thing about this car, it opens itself up to lots of fun for all types.

So the ls all aluminum is bad but an in line 6 with an iron block is better for cg. I'm sorry but did anything you said have any factual basis, they still make the ls to.... Imagine that.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Cross

So the ls all aluminum is bad but an in line 6 with an iron block is better for cg. I'm sorry but did anything you said have any factual basis, they still make the ls to.... Imagine that.

the 2jz leaves room in the engine bay for FI etc... I also stated that it was different iterations that provided advantages in different ways for different things.

Me personally I want an all around best car on pump gas, so that is the perspective that I am coming from.

You can get more reliable power out of a 2jz in this car than you can with an LS. Will it handle better?? I don't know depends what type of driving you are doing...

seems like most on here are interested in AutoX because that's what the toyobaru twins are best for out of the box.

A remington 700 is best for 200-400yd shooting out of the box. I could make it a good assault rifle with enough mods though.

It wouldn't really resemble a remington 700 any more and you would be much better off starting with an AR and making a 300 blackout, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a whole lot of fun to do and have something completely unique.

It's the same with the FRS... People act like the FRS has to be used for autoX and mountain driving because that's what it's most competitive at out of the box.

I know the above has little to do with your posts and desires.

It really just depends what you want in the end.

Are you willing to sacrifice some handling and CG for a stronger base to work from without the ability to FI later or whatever, or do you wanna build up an engine that came with the car... arguments can be made both ways, but don't try to argue that you aren't sacrificing anything by doing the LS swap, because that would be disingenuous or at the least incorrect.

Jaden

[wsites]

Originally Posted by Cross

Did you just pull numbers out of the air and start running with it? 21k WTF are you smoking oh that's right you have to rely on others ability and not your own. Sorry I am not paying someone else to do this when I can do it myself.

You have ignored every fact posted and just made up what suits your argument.

1) The FA is not a better engine, if you are to dense to realize it's another engine then you really need help.
Let's put it this way what car has an FA Swap and went up in value? How many car's get an LS Swap and go up in value, almost all of them. Hell the same is becoming true of Coyote Swaps (That's Ford's 5.0 they offer a complete stand alone setup for any swap desired)

2) The FA has quite a few issues, just like the one this thread was started over concerning a cam issue that caused my failure, but it's ok you can over look that because it does not suit the argument you tried to suddenly walk in and make based off what someone else told you. (Not to mention the TSB's on issues regarding this)

3) When you start at 400+ it's easy to go higher and do so cheaply not to mention the reliability track record of the LS Series or even the Coyote Series. When you start at 200 and break with everything safe then yeah you have a problem. But hey it's the best engine ever!!!!!

4) I have worked on lots of different motors, doesn't mean I know shit about the FA20 or the new Evo motors or any others. Nor does it mean there is enough evidence out and trials with said "New" motor to prove just how well it is or is not built. That takes time and trials obviously of which you have not done.

5) Driver has a lot to do with handling power but if you are losing control of less than 200 at the wheels... then I am sorry but that is entertaining. Boosted I was not in a position where I felt my car could not handle what it was making. N/A Stroker I don't feel that way about my Vette but then again I know how to handle it and realize my gas pedal is not an On/Off Switch...

Really take some further time to think before you just run in all happy to post about something with magical numbers and way off base information. Some of it may have been covered, some of it may have even been dis-proven already and some of it may just be biased worthless personal opinion. Your whole post has reminded me of a moment from The Big Leboski "You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know whats going on"

I have one major issue with this, and that is that no ls swapped car goes up in value... Sorry but no modified car is worth buying unless you personally know the previous owner. There are just too many variables and anyone with a brain will not pay more for a car that has a complete drivetrain swap unless they are made of money, stupid, or both. And that goes for any heavily modified car.