New BRZ vs Z

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Transport3r

Handling is not strictly about performance. Top gear did a ‘best handling car ever’ thing a long time ago. 1st place was the Ferrari 575, 2nd place was the Peugeot 106. Handling is about how the car makes you feel when cornering, not necessarily how fast it can take that corner.

Handling is about my feelings?

I'll admit its a little subjective, but surely you can use your usual handling measurements like corner entry and exit speed, g's and add some of the subjective things like road feel, turn in sharpness, etc. and come up with a pretty good list that wouldn't put a fucking Peugeot 106 at number 2!

Topgear are entirely bonkers =D

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Topgear are entirely bonkers =D

The Brits have a strong fondness for the 90's French hot hatches, especially the Peugeot offering (106, 205). It's kinda like the CRX and Integra Type-R in the US.

I'm not saying they are right or wrong (the closest I drove to one is a crummy automatic 206 and a base manual 208). I can see if you ignore other aspects of a car and focus only on how the handling feels a low power FWD hatch might be better handling than a thoroughbred RWD exotic.

[Ernest72]

For the average driver on public roads, I think the feel is more important then the numbers. If you are racing well the numbers could be more important, but you need feel as well because the driver needs to feel confident in taking the car to the limit.

For example, everyone prefers a car that lets you know what’s happening in a turn before it dramatically over steers or under steers. But a car with snap over steer could have better numbers and be faster through the turn, it’s just harder to learn where that limit is.

I think my WRX wagon with various suspension mods can take the turn better than my BRZ, but the BRZ just feels better. That’s because my WRX stock was understeering like all Subarus and AWD cars. However, with sway bars, springs, braces, bushings etc, my WRX is very much a neutral car now and you can feel the butt come around nicely. The BRZ stock has a more oversteer feel which is fun but not necessarily faster.

Also the BRZ steering kills my 04WRX and the lighter car feels more nimble as well. 3-400 lbs difference. Wish I could get BRZ steering in my WRX (I have 04 STI rack and connector)

[Transport3r]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

Everyone prefers a car that lets you know what’s happening in a turn before it dramatically over steers or under steers. But a car with snap over steer could have better numbers and be faster through the turn, it’s just harder to learn where that limit is.

I think you summed up exactly how the BRZ and 370Z differ. I have no doubt the new cars with compare the same.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

For the average driver on public roads, I think the feel is more important then the numbers. If you are racing well the numbers could be more important, but you need feel as well because the driver needs to feel confident in taking the car to the limit.

For example, everyone prefers a car that lets you know what’s happening in a turn before it dramatically over steers or under steers. But a car with snap over steer could have better numbers and be faster through the turn, it’s just harder to learn where that limit is.

I think my WRX wagon with various suspension mods can take the turn better than my BRZ, but the BRZ just feels better. That’s because my WRX stock was understeering like all Subarus and AWD cars. However, with sway bars, springs, braces, bushings etc, my WRX is very much a neutral car now and you can feel the butt come around nicely. The BRZ stock has a more oversteer feel which is fun but not necessarily faster.

Also the BRZ steering kills my 04WRX and the lighter car feels more nimble as well. 3-400 lbs difference. Wish I could get BRZ steering in my WRX (I have 04 STI rack and connector)

I don't disagree the 'feel' isn't a factor, but the Peugeot 106...!!! I love driving a manual 2009 Renault Kangoo around the place, but I would put it near the top of any greatest drive lists!

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Transport3r

I think you summed up exactly how the BRZ and 370Z differ. I have no doubt the new cars with compare the same.

Possibly, though I hope Nissan take the opportunity to improve the ‘at limit’ feel of the new Z. The Z has plenty of grip - it’s wide ass tyres certainly help - but it isn’t as communicative or progressive when breaking traction as the twins, and this is why people like Harris criticise it.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Possibly, though I hope Nissan take the opportunity to improve the ‘at limit’ feel of the new Z. The Z has plenty of grip - it’s wide ass tyres certainly help - but it isn’t as communicative or progressive when breaking traction as the twins, and this is why people like Harris criticise it.

Theyd probably have to frankenstein the chassis, and I just can't see them doing that.

[Stonehorsw]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

The Brits have a strong fondness for the 90's French hot hatches, especially the Peugeot offering (106, 205). It's kinda like the CRX and Integra Type-R in the US.

I'm not saying they are right or wrong (the closest I drove to one is a crummy automatic 206 and a base manual 208). I can see if you ignore other aspects of a car and focus only on how the handling feels a low power FWD hatch might be better handling than a thoroughbred RWD exotic.

I drove some 105 and 206. 206 is great, with 1.6L engine. A turbo there makes it great.
Also, Opel Astra brings the same kind of feeling with a turbo setup.

[wheelspeed]

I skipped a couple pages but haven't seen comments if the new engine addresses the hole in the torque curve. There was talk here of hp but I don't care about ultimate HP. For a street car I want good midrange torque. My old Mazda 3 only had 150 HP/ 150 torque but the midrange felt good so I loved that car except for being FWD. I sold it last year to get a rwd for my little 4 mile drive to work, but was let down by the BRZ test-drive since it didn't feel good at 4500 rpms. Hopefully the next gen feels better. I also test drove a 370z but of course couldn't tell anything about at the limit handling. I guess I make it a square setup if I got a 370z even tho that doesn't look as cool. Liked the midrange of the ND2 but too small.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by wheelspeed

I skipped a couple pages but haven't seen comments if the new engine addresses the hole in the torque curve. There was talk here of hp but I don't care about ultimate HP. For a street car I want good midrange torque. My old Mazda 3 only had 150 HP/ 150 torque but the midrange felt good so I loved that car except for being FWD. I sold it last year to get a rwd for my little 4 mile drive to work, but was let down by the BRZ test-drive since it didn't feel good at 4500 rpms. Hopefully the next gen feels better. I also test drove a 370z but of course couldn't tell anything about at the limit handling. I guess I make it a square setup if I got a 370z even tho that doesn't look as cool. Liked the midrange of the ND2 but too small.

The current gen BRZ is more of a top end car like a s2000 or vtec honda where the power is at the top of the power band. Peak torque is at 6400 rpm and peak power is at 7000 rpm. The powerband is 4500-7400 rpm. Think of that as the “vtec range” to over-simplify it. If you shift at redline, you can stay within the powerband but it’s not for everyone.

People speculate the next gen BRZ will get rid of the torque dip (3200-4500 rpm) based on the faux dyno chart that’s shown on the gauge cluster. That “feature” debuted with the 2017 model and clearly showed the torque dip. On the next gen cluster, there’s no torque dip shown, leading to speculation that the next gen model won’t have it. Until someone puts a next gen on an actual dyno though, no one can say for sure.

[nextcar]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

The current gen BRZ is more of a top end car like a s2000 or vtec honda where the power is at the top of the power band. Peak torque is at 6400 rpm and peak power is at 7000 rpm. The powerband is 4500-7400 rpm. Think of that as the “vtec range” to over-simplify it. If you shift at redline, you can stay within the powerband but it’s not for everyone.

People speculate the next gen BRZ will get rid of the torque dip (3200-4500 rpm) based on the faux dyno chart that’s shown on the gauge cluster. That “feature” debuted with the 2017 model and clearly showed the torque dip. On the next gen cluster, there’s no torque dip shown, leading to speculation that the next gen model won’t have it. Until someone puts a next gen on an actual dyno though, no one can say for sure.

Although I don't put a lot of faith in the dash dyno graphics, an increase in displacement from 2.0L to 2.4L should have a nice effect on torque and "area under the curve" regardless of any remaining dip... I remain very hopeful pending a test drive. The 2.4L engine has been confirmed (at least for the BRZ in the US market, and the chances of Toyota using a different engine than the BRZ are miniscule).

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by wheelspeed

... haven't seen comments if the new engine addresses the hole in the torque curve.

Have you seen

?

[wheelspeed]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Have you seen

?

Nah, I dont really watch videos. I prefer reading, but maybe I'll watch that one day.

I did see that the 2.4L makes its peak torque below 4,000 rpms, which looks like a great step in the right direction for what I like for driving on public streets.

[mazeroni]

Originally Posted by wheelspeed

.

To long; didn't watch



To be fair, the 2017+ engine did make almost all of its peak torque early too, but it fell off hard and built back up gradually. 2022+ has peak torque early, looses some if it, then it trails off gradually.