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View Poll Results: Practical but fun car for a young family:
Get the 2017 WRX 26 54.17%
2002-2005 IS300 M/T 7 14.58%
E46 M3 6MT 7 14.58%
E39 M5 1 2.08%
Other (I'd love to hear suggestions!) 7 14.58%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-17-2016, 07:43 PM   #57
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I've only seen WRX's and STI's attempt to autocross, never ridden in one, it didn't look pretty, or fun. As a practical car first, sporty second, turn it in before you need to start doing major maintenance they seem great. As for actually flogging it on track they fall pretty far down my list, I'd honestly take an Impreza (or Mazda3) over an STI at this point, put the $15k in my pocket towards something else.

Been hanging out with the BMW crowd, the E46 looks great on paper, but that is one of the cars that has garnered BMW's current reputation for expensive repairs and potential unreliability. It only makes sense if you are totally comfortable paying maintenance bills on a car that was, and always will be, a ~$55k+ car in 2001 money (>$73k today's bills) OR working on said >$70k machinery yourself. Same story with the M5 and pretty much any Bimmer built from the Clinton-era onwards, if you've got the money they're hard to beat, not many people have the coin.

I have driven an IS300 and the suspension even on the beaten and abused model I drove was sublime, double wishbone all around, 3.0L straight six even through the AT and carrying an extra 500 lbs totally out-torqued the FA20. Same lead engineer as the AE86 and it shows, it's basically a Toyota E36 M3 on paper that came out 5 years too late.

But I can't shake the fact that none of these cars really tick the boxes for being practical enough, modern or reliable enough as a family car imo. Except for the M5 the rear seats are all rather tight and to track all of them it will be a very slippery slope, oh just brakes and tires, well to preserve the tires I need camber and with the camber lets just stick with MPSS but I should save them so second set of wheels so lets go bigger and power and coilovers and on and on until it's uncomfortable and impractical. IS300 gets close, I think a set of modest tires, brakes and a good alignment could be sufficient, but it's a 15 year old sedan, I have a hunch the magic will wear off unless you can really work the suspension on a regular basis.

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Better sedan for the money? Honda Civic. Down in performance number, but better in every other way. No I dare you find sedan better than Civic for the price. Car purchase isn't an investment, if resale value is what you care about, get a 3 years old car.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

Mazda 3 (and hatch>sedan for the record). New Civic might have upped the game, but it's a first model year for Honda's new turbo four, might not be the winner today but maybe in a year or two.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...c-first-drive/
http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2016/road-test/

I think @DarkSunrise is right, small, fun, practical DD cars are the right solution, check out current hatches. Problem is as far as I'm concerned all of those have mediocre rear space as well, might be ok for him but it's tough. New Civic, Mazda3 and 4-door Golf/GTI would be my top three suggested test drives. Not as fancy or punch packing as OP's original list but more fuel efficient (should all be >30 mpg average), newer (warranty, parts aren't worn out requiring expensive repairs), safer, and reportedly can be very fun.

Mazda3 w/ 2.5L and a Manual should be orderable, from what I've heard though that extra 0.5L isn't really worth the money and loss in fuel economy.

Edit: After writing that, maybe instead of going supercharged on my 86 in a few years, I could pick up a Civic-R as a all-rounder family car... If it's actually as good as the hype says they are.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:05 PM   #58
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Bought a 2015 WRZ for the wife the same time I bought my 2015 BRZ last year. They are not the same. It's definitely a nice sporty sedan, but you really have to determine what you want. If you want a comfortable sedan, don't get the WRX. If you want a family car that you can have some fun in (not BRZ fun, but some fun) then get a WRX. If you consider yourself a serious driver that NEEDS to have the driving experience, buy a cheap sedan/family car and buy a used sports car (BRZ, Miata, old Porsche).

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Old 03-17-2016, 09:09 PM   #59
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I think @DarkSunrise is right, small, fun, practical DD cars are the right solution, check out current hatches. Problem is as far as I'm concerned all of those have mediocre rear space as well, might be ok for him but it's tough. New Civic, Mazda3 and 4-door Golf/GTI would be my top three suggested test drives. Not as fancy or punch packing as OP's original list but more fuel efficient (should all be >30 mpg average), newer (warranty, parts aren't worn out requiring expensive repairs), safer, and reportedly can be very fun.
Yeah I can really only speak about the GTI (own a 2011). The rear seats are surprisingly roomy, but the hatch area is small. With a single kid I think he'd be fine (e.g., rear-facing child seat + stroller). With two kids though, he should probably start looking at cars with more cargo space.

Track experience with the GTI was positive, although it feels out of its element in some ways. Generally understeers (entry, midcorner, exit), other than downhill turns where you can get some oversteer with throttle lift. Lots of body roll. Brakes were a weak point. Honestly the car feels best at like 7 or 8/10ths, but if it was my only car I think it'd be fun to track regularly with light suspension & brake mods.



Reliability is a bit of a weak point with German cars (mine has had the water pump replaced under warranty) but it does well in crash tests and gets decent gas mileage.

The best reason to pick a GTI over a WRX is the same as always - the interior. Also the hatch is very practical. If he's ok with FWD, I think either the mk6 or mk7 GTI would be a fine choice.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:55 PM   #60
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If you read the comment section, the writer doesn't have a kid. If you care about your kid, get something that can absorb the bump well and ride comfortably... Something like... Lexus LS430? LS460?
When I tested it, the WRX was quite compliant.
Wifey in the back had no complaints either.
But point taken: a brief test drive is nothing like living with it.

It might be better to just grab a decent family car, and a very cheap fun car.

And if I was gonna go vintage Lex, I'd grab a GS400. Always thought those looked bad-ass.
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Old 03-17-2016, 10:32 PM   #61
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If he's ok with FWD, I think either the mk6 or mk7 GTI would be a fine choice.
A decently setup FWD cured me of the misconception that FWD is less fun or effective than RWD/AWD, the preference is silly IMO. Want one, sure. Can't stand one? Bah.
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Old 03-17-2016, 10:56 PM   #62
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A decently setup FWD cured me of the misconception that FWD is less fun or effective than RWD/AWD, the preference is silly IMO. Want one, sure. Can't stand one? Bah.
I agree it's silly to assume FWD will forever understeer (can always change a car's balance if you throw enough parts at it), but I also know it's pointless to try to talk someone out of their preferences. I noticed all the cars he listed were either AWD or RWD so I figured that might be what he wants. Ultimately for me RWD vs. FWD comes down to whether you want the option to power oversteer. I personally love doing wet skidpads with RWD cars and track days in general.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:43 PM   #63
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I agree it's silly to assume FWD will forever understeer (can always change a car's balance if you throw enough parts at it), but I also know it's pointless to try to talk someone out of their preferences. I noticed all the cars he listed were either AWD or RWD so I figured that might be what he wants. Ultimately for me RWD vs. FWD comes down to whether you want the option to power oversteer. I personally love doing wet skidpads with RWD cars and track days in general.
I do love the ability to kick the tail out, and the feeling of being pushed through a corner. Considered the FoST or Speed 3, but those might be too small or rough for family duty...

Had an old Celica and learned manual on a Mk 4 jetta so I agree FWD can be fun.

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Old 03-18-2016, 12:39 AM   #64
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I've only seen WRX's and STI's attempt to autocross, never ridden in one, it didn't look pretty, or fun. As a practical car first, sporty second, turn it in before you need to start doing major maintenance they seem great. As for actually flogging it on track they fall pretty far down my list, I'd honestly take an Impreza (or Mazda3) over an STI at this point, put the $15k in my pocket towards something else.

Been hanging out with the BMW crowd, the E46 looks great on paper, but that is one of the cars that has garnered BMW's current reputation for expensive repairs and potential unreliability. It only makes sense if you are totally comfortable paying maintenance bills on a car that was, and always will be, a ~$55k+ car in 2001 money (>$73k today's bills) OR working on said >$70k machinery yourself. Same story with the M5 and pretty much any Bimmer built from the Clinton-era onwards, if you've got the money they're hard to beat, not many people have the coin.

I have driven an IS300 and the suspension even on the beaten and abused model I drove was sublime, double wishbone all around, 3.0L straight six even through the AT and carrying an extra 500 lbs totally out-torqued the FA20. Same lead engineer as the AE86 and it shows, it's basically a Toyota E36 M3 on paper that came out 5 years too late.

But I can't shake the fact that none of these cars really tick the boxes for being practical enough, modern or reliable enough as a family car imo. Except for the M5 the rear seats are all rather tight and to track all of them it will be a very slippery slope, oh just brakes and tires, well to preserve the tires I need camber and with the camber lets just stick with MPSS but I should save them so second set of wheels so lets go bigger and power and coilovers and on and on until it's uncomfortable and impractical. IS300 gets close, I think a set of modest tires, brakes and a good alignment could be sufficient, but it's a 15 year old sedan, I have a hunch the magic will wear off unless you can really work the suspension on a regular basis.



http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

Mazda 3 (and hatch>sedan for the record). New Civic might have upped the game, but it's a first model year for Honda's new turbo four, might not be the winner today but maybe in a year or two.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...c-first-drive/
http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2016/road-test/

I think @DarkSunrise is right, small, fun, practical DD cars are the right solution, check out current hatches. Problem is as far as I'm concerned all of those have mediocre rear space as well, might be ok for him but it's tough. New Civic, Mazda3 and 4-door Golf/GTI would be my top three suggested test drives. Not as fancy or punch packing as OP's original list but more fuel efficient (should all be >30 mpg average), newer (warranty, parts aren't worn out requiring expensive repairs), safer, and reportedly can be very fun.

Mazda3 w/ 2.5L and a Manual should be orderable, from what I've heard though that extra 0.5L isn't really worth the money and loss in fuel economy.

Edit: After writing that, maybe instead of going supercharged on my 86 in a few years, I could pick up a Civic-R as a all-rounder family car... If it's actually as good as the hype says they are.
Civic hatch is coming. Even the "fastback" sedan is spacious if you don't mind the odd looking roofline. I love 2.5L Mazda3, but Mazda 3 2.5L is almost as much as 6 Why not 6 instead. Refreshed 6 looks amazing, it still drives great and Mazda did a good job with sound deafening in the refresh. It's almost perfect that I start to wonder why Mazda sells really poorly in the US. Mazda is a hit everywhere else.
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Old 03-18-2016, 02:30 AM   #65
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I don't think I would want to deal with both a newborn baby and a 15-year-old BMW at the same time.... get the WRX
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:55 AM   #66
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You said the WRX had a long shifter throw and high seating position...well, shifter throw can be changed if you don't like, but the rest of the cars you listed also have a pretty high seating position too.

Personally, I think in this class of car there's only so much you can ask for, and the WRX is probably as good as it gets. Decent power, AWD, and a slick gearbox compared to the BRZ's IMO.

The E46 M3 sounded really cool to me and I strongly considered buying one...until I read about it and got that thought out of my head quickly. It has a belt driven radiator fan for god's sake...even for 2000, that is next-level dinosaur tech, and the rear sub-frame apparently can get bent? That turned me off from the BMW brand enough that I never even bothered to read about the E39 M5.

Between those I'd go WRX, since I don't really like the 2JZ-GE engine in the IS300. Are IS250s that bad? I've always wanted to try a manual transmission one...
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:23 AM   #67
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:32 PM   #68
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I am driving a 2016 Impreza loaner today while my car is in for service and I can confirm, contrary to what Dark commented, Subaru does know how to make the car quiet.

If my WRX was made as quiet as an Impreza I would not expect it.
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Old 03-18-2016, 02:28 PM   #69
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Civic hatch is coming. Even the "fastback" sedan is spacious if you don't mind the odd looking roofline. I love 2.5L Mazda3, but Mazda 3 2.5L is almost as much as 6 Why not 6 instead. Refreshed 6 looks amazing, it still drives great and Mazda did a good job with sound deafening in the refresh. It's almost perfect that I start to wonder why Mazda sells really poorly in the US. Mazda is a hit everywhere else.
I agree, I'd test a 2.5L but wouldn't expect it to be worth the money, I really wish they sold the Mazda6 wagon over here I think that'd be the best all around DD for under $30k. Getting out the door with a new 3 for ~$20k strikes me as the best budget car you can get right now. We can compare the Civic hatch when (if) it shows up.

Mazda is suffering for it's missteps in the past, it's why they've scaled back and really focused on each individual model before releasing it. They had two really bad problems that turned off a lot of buyers they're trying to win back imo. The first is rust, in the 80's it was forgivable, all cars rusted and were trash by 5-10 years in the snowbelt, but galvanized steel came along and greatly reduced that. By the late 90's cars were more resilient, but not Mazda's, there have been rust issues on Mazda's up through the 00's with Mazda extending the corrosion warranty to 6 years on 04-06 Mazda3's. I know Tcoat had that comment when the topic of the Protege's came up, had a relative with one that was disintegrating iirc.

The second I think was the 1st generation Renesis in the RX-8, I love the rotary engine but can't defend the fact that there were enough RX-8's blown by 36k miles to warrant an extended 10 year 100k mile warranty and free engine replacement program for them. No matter what they do in the future, early adopters will be few as those with longer memories think of how many enthusiastic RX-8 owners got burned.

Mazda has a fanbase, but to the average US buyer, they're a small Asian manufacturer on par with Subaru, Mitsubishi, and Hyundai as bottom of the barrel with the perception of flimsy build quality that's overpriced for what you get because it's Japanese. It will take many more years of the 3, 6, CX, and ND delivering time and time again in magazine tests and surviving on the road and retaining resale value for their brand value to increase to the product they're making. Like Subaru they know this and are selling modest volumes to ensure profitability, achievable targets so they can count on consistent growth instead of gambling by overproducing and damaging their own brand as dealers discount deeply to move units against the competition.

What I love most about Mazda right now is they developed their turbocharged DI motors in the '00s, the bigass power out of their 2.3L mazdaspeed3 that could put down 300+ horsepower with a tune 6+ years ago, is now sitting in a Mustang putting down 305 horsepower as 'the hot new thing' as well as the FoST/FiST and internet hype train of the Focus RS, ecoboost plastered all over the lineup touting 30+ mpg, their V6 is driving not only the F150 the best selling vehicle of all time, but also the new Ford GT that will take on Ferrari Porsche and Mclaren. And what does Mazda do with the in depth knowledge of these systems they developed a decade ago that underpin what might be Ford's most successful lineup ever? Toss it out the window in favor of their 'Skyactiv' design. Maybe Ford owns the tech and it was too expensive for Mazda to license it, idk, but in the areas they compete right now, Mazda wins hands down pretty much every time.
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Old 03-18-2016, 06:53 PM   #70
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