New BRZ vs Z

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Red-86

You might disagree, but in my opinion, yes, first and foremost all hot hatches are ultimately appliances (practical cars) first and performance cars second. Impressive performers for sure, but they are impressive despite their econobox underpinnings, not because of them. They are inherently compromised from the start by having to be built around a practical 5-door family hatchback.

Put it another way, take the engine, brakes, suspension and all the other engineering expertise that makes a CTR so quick, and have Honda apply it all to a smaller 2-door coupe that is lighter and has a lower CoG... that coupe would be even quicker than the CTR. If the engineers were given a clean slate and no practicality restraints to design the best handling and quickest car that can still seat two adults, they will base it around a 2-door coupe before considering making it a 5-door hatch. That coupe would in turn be a sportscar first and an appliance second.

To make it even clearer, consider a CTR vs a Lotus Elise. Both can put down impressive lap times, but the Lotus is a dedicated sports car and would be most enthusiasts first choice on a dedicated track day, whereas the CTR is a practical car and would be the only logical pick between the two if you had to pick some people up from the airport or transport some flat pack furniture from IKEA.

It’s no reason to get upset, just the reality of vehicle design and the compromises that must be made to bring these vehicles to market and make them affordable and profitable.

I can respect this and mostly agree, there is definitely a huge what if in my mind if Honda decided to use either the coupe body as the actual sporty body, or if they made something from ground up as the Type R, but obviously costs would be astronomical.

Maybe I look at the word appliance as being quite harsh on the vehicle itself as this is how I'd normally refer to a Tesla, but the vehicles, both the RS and CTR are derived from are just that.

Where I don't agree, and maybe it's due to the fact that I own one, but I do not see vehicles like the CTR, RS, or even that sexy Renault Megane we don't get, as an appliance first and 'sporty' car second. Saying this makes it almost as if the performance of the vehicle was forced and that the vehicle itself is less than the sum of it's parts, yet these vehicles are extremely capable compared to more expensive dedicated competition, which with your argument, makes no sense.

Then of course there is the GR Yaris, the internets favorite baby right now, if Honda (HPD) decided to do something similar for touring car with the CTR, would we end up with the same results? Or something even better? *shrug* the hope is something better. Same could be said about Ford and the Focus for WRC.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

You miss my point entirely.

I don't think so...

I don't think Porsche or BMW need to learn anything from the FT86, a car with a weak engine and huge weight compared to a MX5. If anything, they can learn from the MX5.

The MX5 and FT86 may have some overlap in terms of buyers, but they are very different cars, 2-seat roadster vs. 2+2 coupe. Of course the much-smaller MX5 is quite a bit lighter-weight.

BMW and Porsche can learn a lot from both the MX-5 and the FT86. If they were interested in building more minimalist and lighter-weight 2-seat roadsters and 2+2 FR coupes. Which we know they aren't...

At ~2800 lb. the FT86 is as far as I know the lightest FR 2+2 you can get, more than *600 lb.* lighter than BMW's lightest-weight 2+2.

All I've read so far is the expected bias from owners of the Twins, you don't want to respect other cars because they don't fit your needs/wants, yet when you try to argue something you say the twins are practical.

Try to argue about how "special" (kind of a b.s. term anyway) a grossly overweight BMW is and yeah, you're going to get some disagreement here! Objectively the FT86 *is* more practical than a Miata, and I do require some capacity for carrying people and stuff around.

It's kind of ridiculous to think that either weight *shouldn't matter at all*, to the extent that no one should complain about the performance version of the smallest BMW weighing 3600 frigging pounds, or that it should matter so much that enthusiasts who want a relatively light, trackable FR car shouldn't even consider the 2800-lb. FT86 because the Miata (again, a completely different class of car) is 450 lb. lighter (note that weight delta is *a lot* smaller than the difference between an FT86 and a 230i).

I'd prefer either the MX5 or the FT86 to be offered as a 2-seat fixed-roof hatch, but that ain't happenin' and for *me* the FT86 is the better compromise both for practicality and because I don't want a convertible (I think I have tinnitus from dailying an S2000 for 10 years).

Of course you're right to expect bias on forums dedicated to the FT86. There's a reason *most* of us are here and not on CTR forums mocking people for driving wrong-wheel-drive cars (that are also overweight)...

Maybe I should give more examples of various cars at various weights, then you'd understand. Maybe something like the 3500lbs Gallardo or 3800lbs NSX or even 3100lbs Evora, oh and honorable mention 2400lbs A110.

I'm well aware of the weights of all those cars. Overweight, WAY overweight, a bit overweight, and not bad at all, I'm interested (but it ain't comin here)

The twins are good cars, but not a benchmark by a long shot.

For me, in the segment of FR 2+2 coupes, they are the lightweight benchmark, by a LONG shot.

I just wish they'd make a shorter-wheelbase cab-rearward 2-seat version...

[Transport3r]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I don't think so...

The MX5 and FT86 may have some overlap in terms of buyers, but they are very different cars, 2-seat roadster vs. 2+2 coupe. Of course the much-smaller MX5 is quite a bit lighter-weight.

BMW and Porsche can learn a lot from both the MX-5 and the FT86. If they were interested in building more minimalist and lighter-weight 2-seat roadsters and 2+2 FR coupes. Which we know they aren't...

At ~2800 lb. the FT86 is as far as I know the lightest FR 2+2 you can get, more than *600 lb.* lighter than BMW's lightest-weight 2+2.

Try to argue about how "special" (kind of a b.s. term anyway) a grossly overweight BMW is and yeah, you're going to get some disagreement here! Objectively the FT86 *is* more practical than a Miata, and I do require some capacity for carrying people and stuff around.

It's kind of ridiculous to think that either weight *shouldn't matter at all*, to the extent that no one should complain about the performance version of the smallest BMW weighing 3600 frigging pounds, or that it should matter so much that enthusiasts who want a relatively light, trackable FR car shouldn't even consider the 2800-lb. FT86 because the Miata (again, a completely different class of car) is 450 lb. lighter (note that weight delta is *a lot* smaller than the difference between an FT86 and a 230i).

I'd prefer either the MX5 or the FT86 to be offered as a 2-seat fixed-roof hatch, but that ain't happenin' and for *me* the FT86 is the better compromise both for practicality and because I don't want a convertible (I think I have tinnitus from dailying an S2000 for 10 years).

Of course you're right to expect bias on forums dedicated to the FT86. There's a reason *most* of us are here and not on CTR forums mocking people for driving wrong-wheel-drive cars (that are also overweight)...

I'm well aware of the weights of all those cars. Overweight, WAY overweight, a bit overweight, and not bad at all, I'm interested (but it ain't comin here)

For me, in the segment of FR 2+2 coupes, they are the lightweight benchmark, by a LONG shot.

I just wish they'd make a shorter-wheelbase cab-rearward 2-seat version...

Agreed. Remember when Mazda made a 2+2 fixed roof Miata? They came out with the RX8 at ~3060lbs. With a piston engine it would have been even heavier.

[DarkSideFRS]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

You miss my point entirely.

There is a reason I mentioned MX5 and GTR, yet you glossed over one. I don't think Porsche or BMW need to learn anything from the FT86, a car with a weak engine and huge weight compared to a MX5. If anything, they can learn from the MX5.

All I've read so far is the expected bias from owners of the Twins, you don't want to respect other cars because they don't fit your needs/wants, yet when you try to argue something you say the twins are practical.

Maybe I should give more examples of various cars at various weights, then you'd understand. Maybe something like the 3500lbs Gallardo or 3800lbs NSX or even 3100lbs Evora, oh and honorable mention 2400lbs A110.

The twins are good cars, but not a benchmark by a long shot.

Exactly. These are just fanboys who think the twins are the best things since grilled cheese sandwiches

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

Exactly. These are just fanboys who think the twins are the best things since grilled cheese sandwiches

HA, the *other* hatin' non-owner is back! I love it...

You're right, I'd rather have my BRZ than 100,000 grilled cheese sammiches...

[DarkSideFRS]

Originally Posted by ZDan

HA, the *other* hatin' non-owner is back! I love it...

You're right, I'd rather have my BRZ than 100,000 grilled cheese sammiches...

How am I back when I never left..?

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'm well aware of the weights of all those cars. Overweight, WAY overweight, a bit overweight, and not bad at all, I'm interested (but it ain't comin here)

And don't forget to factor in the cost of said cars, all of which are double, triple or more the cost of an 86. Imagine what could have been done to the second gen if Toyota and Subaru were willing to double the cost. Going all-aluminum for the chassis and body panels alone would lose a few hundred pounds.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I don't think so...

The MX5 and FT86 may have some overlap in terms of buyers, but they are very different cars, 2-seat roadster vs. 2+2 coupe. Of course the much-smaller MX5 is quite a bit lighter-weight.

BMW and Porsche can learn a lot from both the MX-5 and the FT86. If they were interested in building more minimalist and lighter-weight 2-seat roadsters and 2+2 FR coupes. Which we know they aren't...

At ~2800 lb. the FT86 is as far as I know the lightest FR 2+2 you can get, more than *600 lb.* lighter than BMW's lightest-weight 2+2.

Try to argue about how "special" (kind of a b.s. term anyway) a grossly overweight BMW is and yeah, you're going to get some disagreement here! Objectively the FT86 *is* more practical than a Miata, and I do require some capacity for carrying people and stuff around.

It's kind of ridiculous to think that either weight *shouldn't matter at all*, to the extent that no one should complain about the performance version of the smallest BMW weighing 3600 frigging pounds, or that it should matter so much that enthusiasts who want a relatively light, trackable FR car shouldn't even consider the 2800-lb. FT86 because the Miata (again, a completely different class of car) is 450 lb. lighter (note that weight delta is *a lot* smaller than the difference between an FT86 and a 230i).

I'd prefer either the MX5 or the FT86 to be offered as a 2-seat fixed-roof hatch, but that ain't happenin' and for *me* the FT86 is the better compromise both for practicality and because I don't want a convertible (I think I have tinnitus from dailying an S2000 for 10 years).

Of course you're right to expect bias on forums dedicated to the FT86. There's a reason *most* of us are here and not on CTR forums mocking people for driving wrong-wheel-drive cars (that are also overweight)...

I'm well aware of the weights of all those cars. Overweight, WAY overweight, a bit overweight, and not bad at all, I'm interested (but it ain't comin here)

For me, in the segment of FR 2+2 coupes, they are the lightweight benchmark, by a LONG shot.

I just wish they'd make a shorter-wheelbase cab-rearward 2-seat version...

That's just it though, it makes zero sense to buy a FT86 over an MX5 if performance is of any concern, the only time the FT86 becomes a option is when personal practicality is considered, regardless of them being in a different class.

I still don't think BMW or Porsche need to learn anything from the FT86 besides making a low rent interior. What do they need to learn? Why do they need to make something lighter to be considered acceptable as a
adequate performance vehicle in the eyes of the niche? Why don't you call a ZL1 1LE a PoS already, that's where your sentiments go anyway. BMW/Porsche aren't going to make something as light as you want because they don't need to, their cars are good, could they be better? Anything could be better.

Yes weight definitely matters, but if the vehicle is built to carry it and it carries it extremely well, then what is it other than the feeling of a heavier vehicle that could possibly make it lesser than the FT86 that you so claim it to be? I do not see weight as a detriment if the car is equipped accordingly. That's not to say I wouldn't shave pounds off my CTR given the chance, but are you really going to look at a GTR and call it an overweight pig. Scalability is the theme here.

My only reason for mentioning bias is because you seemingly cannot see beyond it. No matter what someone says the FT86 will forever be the golden child in your eyes because it is MOSTLY what YOU want, and that's fine, this is a twin forum.

It's great you're aware of their weights, but you disregard them completely or treat them like the holy grail because of their weights.

I'll never agree that the FT86 is a benchmark in anyway besides price for what you get, but then you have the porky Mustangs and Camaros in the bargain bin here in NA.

And it's called fun-wheel-drive, thanks!

*posting on a phone is hard af*

[KR-S]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

Just here to warn the noobs to stay away from this platform..enjoyed it for abt 6 months before I started to get bored of it... Throw in the TOB failing before 50k miles and the valve recall and I was so happy when I finally sold that POS

I'm still not sure why you're posting here then; most of the noobs who are here will have already bought the so-called POS platform.

Even if they were already on here and were still trying to decide, it would take more than one person's bad experience to steer them away from the platform.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by ZDan

HA, the *other* hatin' non-owner is back! I love it...

You're right, I'd rather have my BRZ than 100,000 grilled cheese sammiches...

Hope you're not referring to me as a hater, because I'm far from it. If you know any of my history here anyway.

[KR-S]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

Hope you're not referring to me as a hater, because I'm far from it. If you know any of my history here anyway.

Fuck you, god damn 5x120 elitist. Take your 5x120 master race bullcrap to the Honda forums.

/s

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

That's just it though, it makes zero sense to buy a FT86 over an MX5 if performance is of any concern,

Not seeing any ND2s at the track, but I'm not worried about them... I don't think the ND2's performance should be very different from the FT86 with normal trackworthy tires and brake pads on both, and some front camber for the FT86...
Anyway, if absolute performance numbers were the primary concern then of course neither the MX5 or the FT86 would be for me.

the only time the FT86 becomes a option is when personal practicality is considered, regardless of them being in a different class.

"Regardless" of them being in a different class? More like *because* they are in a different class.

There are a host of considerations for most people. Another for me was, as I already mentioned, I didn't want a convertible.

I still don't think BMW or Porsche need to learn anything from the FT86 besides making a low rent interior.

I'm a tiny bit of a stickler on interiors (kept me from buying a WRX years ago, also C6, probably some others), and I love the BRZ PP's interior. Maybe as much as I loved my S2000's. Maybe I like simpler more spartan interiors than luxury yacht interiors...

What do they need to learn?

How to build smaller lighter-weight cars again.

Why do they need to make something lighter to be considered acceptable as a adequate performance vehicle in the eyes of the niche?

Well, they don't *need* to. I would just like for them to.

Why don't you call a ZL1 1LE a PoS already, that's where your sentiments go anyway.

Cool car in it's way, obviously fast as hell, not my thing though.

BMW/Porsche aren't going to make something as light as you want because they don't need to, their cars are good, could they be better? Anything could be better.

I just think it's a shame that companies that used to build minimalist lightweight FUN cars don't do so any more.

Yes weight definitely matters, but if the vehicle is built to carry it and it carries it extremely well, then what is it other than the feeling of a heavier vehicle that could possibly make it lesser than the FT86 that you so claim it to be?

This sentence is so awkwardly worded than I'm not sure how to answer it... I'll just restate that I think it's a shame they don't try to keep weight in check. For at least their lowest-digit series anyway. OK, maybe my answer is: It is *precisely* "the feeling of a heavier vehicle" that make them less desirable for me.

I do not see weight as a detriment if the car is equipped accordingly. That's not to say I wouldn't shave pounds off my CTR given the chance, but are you really going to look at a GTR and call it an overweight pig. Scalability is the theme here.

May be your theme. In my experience, lighter-weight cars are just more fun. I've been around the track in GTRs, Camaros, etc. etc. and there *is* a fun in the outright speed, but to me the *greater* fun is found in lighter-weight cars like the FT86 and yeah, Miatae. And Lotus Elise... All MANY seconds slower than a GTR. But to me, more fun.

My only reason for mentioning bias is because you seemingly cannot see beyond it. No matter what someone says the FT86 will forever be the golden child in your eyes because it is MOSTLY what YOU want, and that's fine, this is a twin forum.

Well, yeah, I'm speaking my opinion. FT86 was the first new car I've bought since 1994, because, yeah, it checked off most of the important boxes on my hierarchy of needs for a car.

It's great you're aware of their weights, but you disregard them completely or treat them like the holy grail because of their weights.

??? Yeah, I'll say it again, I've driven on the street and been around the track in a wide variety of cars, and I have found that I enjoy lighter-weight cars vs. heavier ones. A lot more. No car is a "holy grail", every car is a host of compromises. But yeah, weight is a big factor for me.

I'll never agree that the FT86 is a benchmark in anyway besides price for what you get, but then you have the porky Mustangs and Camaros in the bargain bin here in NA.

Again, it's the lightest-weight FR 2+2 you can get in the U.S., by far. I believe it's also the lightest rwd fixed-roof coupe regardless of seat count since the 4C coupe went away...

And it's called fun-wheel-drive, thanks!

But it's WRONG!

*posting on a phone is hard af*

[DarkSideFRS]

If weight such a concern, go on a diet. Most Americans are fata$$es to begin with. Problem solved

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

If weight such a concern, go on a diet. Most Americans are fata$$es to begin with. Problem solved

I weigh 142 lb., I don't think I could lose enough to make a big difference without negatively impacting my health!

But anyway, someone even losing a *significant* amount of weight isn't going to make a 3400+ lb. car feel like a 2800 lb. car...