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Old 04-08-2022, 10:01 AM   #211
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If you haven't already got your name on one you are probably shit outta luck no matter what the pricing is. Even then the list price is going to be meaningless. There is zero doubt about that.
And that really defeats the purpose of an affordable enthusiast car. Toyota can fix this, but they wonít.
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Old 04-08-2022, 10:11 AM   #212
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And that really defeats the purpose of an affordable enthusiast car. Toyota can fix this, but they wonít.
i dont think this car was ever considered an "affordable enthusiast car"

That mantle belongs to and remains with the 86 twins.

As a hot hatch, it will be priced like one (whether that's considered affordable or not)
With the obvious comparisons to the Golf R, Type R, and the sedan only STI.
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Old 04-08-2022, 10:12 AM   #213
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And that really defeats the purpose of an affordable enthusiast car. Toyota can fix this, but they won’t.
FOR CHRIST SAKE!
It isn't broken and doesn't need to be "fixed".
It is a low volume special car and not everybody that wants one is going to get one. They know that. That is what they want to happen.
If they pumped out 500,000 of these a year then all of a sudden the the internet would be screaming how they are too common.
Why does this seem so hard for people to grasp?

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Old 04-08-2022, 10:54 AM   #214
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And that really defeats the purpose of an affordable enthusiast car. Toyota can fix this, but they wonít.
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Old 04-08-2022, 11:01 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Sasquachulator View Post
i dont think this car was ever considered an "affordable enthusiast car"

That mantle belongs to and remains with the 86 twins.

As a hot hatch, it will be priced like one (whether that's considered affordable or not)
With the obvious comparisons to the Golf R, Type R, and the sedan only STI.
Which is currently also basically impossible to get at least MT. Would probably be a little different in normal times but it's looking like their 1st year production numbers might not be toooo far off the first gen. I'll estimate 12-15k units vs. the 1st gen's 18k units first big year.

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FOR CHRIST SAKE!
It isn't broken and doesn't need to be "fixed".
It is a low volume special car and not everybody that wants one is going to get one. They know that. That is what they want to happen.
If they pumped out 500,000 of these a year then all of a sudden the the internet would be screaming how they are too common.
Why does this seem so hard for people to grasp?

I think we all get the point. But how they do this will mean the difference between throwing enthusiasts a bone (what this should be) and gutting us with a sick joke. Might as well have kept doing the dumb teasers forever and never release the car if only 1 in 10 people who would actually buy the car can get it. "One too few" they said, let's see.
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Old 04-08-2022, 11:12 AM   #216
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Which is currently also basically impossible to get at least MT. Would probably be a little different in normal times but it's looking like their 1st year production numbers might not be toooo far off the first gen. I'll estimate 12-15k units vs. the 1st gen's 18k units first big year.


I think we all get the point. But how they do this will mean the difference between throwing enthusiasts a bone (what this should be) and gutting us with a sick joke. Might as well have kept doing the dumb teasers forever and never release the car if only 1 in 10 people who would actually buy the car can get it. "One too few" they said, let's see.
In Toyota terms "1" is probably more like 10,000 but their point remains.
"1 in 10" You think they should release 80,000 of these?
Every "enthusiast" car ever sold had people that wanted but could not get them. The fact that every other car on the road isn't one is part of what "enthusiasts" like about their rare cars.
Sure it sucks but there will be some available next model year and probably a couple after that so people that can't get one now will just have to wait.
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Old 04-08-2022, 11:14 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
FOR CHRIST SAKE!
It isn't broken and doesn't need to be "fixed".
It is a low volume special car and not everybody that wants one is going to get one. They know that. That is what they want to happen.
If they pumped out 500,000 of these a year then all of a sudden the the internet would be screaming how they are too common.
Why does this seem so hard for people to grasp?


I agree, from a business perspective it works as intended, but as an enthusiast this system is very broken and it only restricts the availability of enthusiast cars to those that can afford more expensive cars in first place.

Itís hard enough buying a fun car for 30-40k these days, choices are very limited. From my perspective thereís no point in a if they end up selling for Supra money anyway, because they chose not to make enough of them. The people that want a fun car that doesnít cost Supra/Z/Porsche/Mcar money wonít be able to buy one anyway.
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Old 04-08-2022, 11:20 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
I agree, from a business perspective it works as intended, but as an enthusiast this system is very broken and it only restricts the availability of enthusiast cars to those that can afford more expensive cars in first place.

Itís hard enough buying a fun car for 30-40k these days, choices are very limited. From my perspective thereís no point in a if they end up selling for Supra money anyway, because they chose not to make enough of them. The people that want a fun car that doesnít cost Supra/Z/Porsche/Mcar money wonít be able to buy one anyway.
I mean, thereís a decent amount of affordable options
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Old 04-08-2022, 11:26 AM   #219
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I agree, from a business perspective it works as intended, but as an enthusiast this system is very broken and it only restricts the availability of enthusiast cars to those that can afford more expensive cars in first place.
BREAKING NEWS
Toyota is a business.

I really want a Jag Type F and Jaguar is stupid for not making more of them so they are cheaper and I can afford it!
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Old 04-08-2022, 11:30 AM   #220
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I mean, thereís a decent amount of affordable options
But they want THAT car. They want it NOW and don't want to pay much for it.
Not sure how it became accepted that this thing was every going to be huge volumes and "inexpensive" in the first place.

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Old 04-08-2022, 11:41 AM   #221
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Sure it sucks but there will be some available next model year and probably a couple after that so people that can't get one now will just have to wait.
If they build at this rate for 3-4 years, yeah maybe won't be too bad. I read somewhere that they plan to ramp up production quite a bit over the ~8000 in the second MY for example, can't find that though.
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Old 04-08-2022, 11:44 AM   #222
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It is not really a "restriction" they have planned for a limited run. Not at all unusual to do so I am not sure why people think they were ever going to do base model build numbers. The extra welds and adhesive probably add about 2 minutes to the build time and have no impact on volumes.
If you haven't already got your name on one you are probably shit outta luck no matter what the pricing is. Even then the list price is going to be meaningless. There is zero doubt about that.
I mean I never thought theyíd be anywhere close to base model numbers. But it sounds like this car will be significantly lower in numbers to something like the CTR and Golf R which are its two main competitors.

Just a bit of a let down is all.
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Old 04-08-2022, 11:50 AM   #223
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If they build at this rate for 3-4 years, yeah maybe won't be too bad. I read somewhere that they plan to ramp up production quite a bit over the ~8000 in the second MY for example, can't find that though.
I think it's an R&T paywalled article, I must have been able to read it before. It was the widely quoted 6000 first year, with ramp up to 8000 but "no hard cap on production." 8000/yr could end up being plenty for the determined after a year or two.
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Old 04-08-2022, 12:04 PM   #224
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I mean I never thought theyíd be anywhere close to base model numbers. But it sounds like this car will be significantly lower in numbers to something like the CTR and Golf R which are its two main competitors.

Just a bit of a let down is all.
UMMMMM
Can't find firm numbers for the Civic but looks like around 3,000 a year.
The Golf? Well their number don't even come close to what Toyota says they will make.
Probably way more than STi numbers as well but everything listed includes the WRX so not sure.
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