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View Poll Results: Which one would you rather?
Nissan Z 70 71.43%
Toyota Supra 28 28.57%
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Old 09-06-2020, 07:48 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
It is too heavy. Those cars are either sportified luxury cars or oversized and of course overweight 2-door sedans.
911 Carrera? Supra? Sportified luxury cars or overweight 2-door sedans? Seriously? They are none of those things. They are highly competent sportscars. If you want to play with 400HP performance cars, you have to face the reality that they will weigh more than 180-200HP NA entry level cars like the MX-5 or 86. Unless you pony up for something expensive and exotic like a Lotus.

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Far from "forgetting" that fact, we're keenly aware of it! There's an untapped market here...
And yet, you canít conceive of why itís untapped... if it was easy, why hasnít it been done? If Toyota could have made the 86 for the same price, same weight, but given it a 300HP V6... why didnít they? The answer comes back to; power, lightweight, affordable. Pick two.

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Welp, my PP was the heaviest one yet when I bought it in 2017 at 2820 lb. full of fuel so I don't know where 2900 is coming from.
Itís a round figure based off the top spec here in Australia which reached 1300kg. But call it 2,800lb if you like, the point stands.

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Brakes on the PP are most definitely suitable for at least 350hp.
At OEM levels? At EOM prices? Nothing but speculation unless you are privy to internal Toyota requirements and tolerances.

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Suspension has to deal with *road loads* and isn't driven by outright power.
Increased power requires higher quality suspension in order for handling (and safety) not to suffer. Donít forget safety, it drives much of OEM planning and decision making.

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Twins are plenty rigid enough for me.
Great, but you are not the OEM planning on running 300-400HP through the car across thousands of cars and millions of kms. Rigidity becomes more important as power increases, because itís never fun to have a chassis flexing and twisting on you under load. Again, OEMs have to factor in safety, something forum jockeys and tuners often donít consider or care about.

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Skinny wheels/tires easily replaced with 17x9 wheels and 245s all around or wider if desired.
Yep, and those add weight, unless you spring for ultra lightweight forged or exotic material jobs, which of course increase price.

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Agreed, they're all sporty luxo-GT cruisers. Plenty of performance, but far from being pure sports cars...
They are what the OEMs have determined the market wants and what they can deliver, at a profit and at low risk. Automotive companies are not, contrary to forum opinions, idiots who canít understand market demands. To the contrary, OEMs have far more data about, and experience with, market trends and demands than random enthusiasts on forums. They also know far more about manufacturing and material costs, safety and emissions requirements, and all the other little demands for a new passenger car.

If there was really this gaping hole in the market for a US$30k, 300HP, 2,800lb sportscar that could be easily filled and was profitable, you can bet it would be filled by now. Heck, Toyota came close with their 86, but they could only achieve the price point with an anaemic 200HP boxer 4 from Subaru. They canít even offer you a 300HP Toyota sportscar (Supra 2.0) for less than US$40k!

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I stick by my assertion that an FT86-esque 2-seat sports car with ~300+ hp n.a. 6 at 2800 lb. for reasonable $$$ is totally doable,
Why donít you start up your own company and build it then? Because clearly none of the established OEMs believe it can be done, or want to do it. What do you know that they donít?
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Old 09-06-2020, 08:11 PM   #338
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They canít even offer you a 300HP BMW sportscar (Supra 2.0) for less than US$40k!
Fixed.
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Old 09-06-2020, 08:24 PM   #339
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911 Carrera? Supra? Sportified luxury cars or overweight 2-door sedans? Seriously?
They're luxury cars, for sure. Much bigger and heavier than if they were purist sports cars.

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They are none of those things. They are highly competent sportscars.
The term "sports car" means different things to different people. For me, a Miata is 10x more of a "sports car" than any road car Porsche has built in a long time...


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If you want to play with 400HP performance cars, you have to face the reality that they will weigh more than 180-200HP NA entry level cars like the MX-5 or 86. Unless you pony up for something expensive and exotic like a Lotus.
I never said I wanted or needed 400hp. For sure 300-330ish hp on a shortened FT86 platform would work, and it wouldn't weigh as much or cost as much as an Evora.

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And yet, you can’t conceive of why it’s untapped... if it was easy, why hasn’t it been done?
No *perceived* market.

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If Toyota could have made the 86 for the same price, same weight, but given it a 300HP V6... why didn’t they? The answer comes back to; power, lightweight, affordable. Pick two.
How much do you reckon the 301hp V6 in a Camry costs? How much weight would it add to an FT86, and how much weight would be removed by shortening the platform to a dedicated 2-seater on a 92" wheelbase?

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Increased power requires higher quality suspension in order for handling (and safety) not to suffer.
*No it does not*. Might retune front/rear roll stiffness distribution a bit, it's not rocket science and it doesn't have to add $$$.

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Don’t forget safety, it drives much of OEM planning and decision making.
Same safety standards to meet for 205hp as 300+hp.


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Great, but you are not the OEM planning on running 300-400HP through the car across thousands of cars and millions of kms. Rigidity becomes more important as power increases, because it’s never fun to have a chassis flexing and twisting on you under load.
Road loads are WAY higher and more significant than loads from the powertrain. You don't need a more rigid chassis than the car already has anyway, BUT shortening the wheelbase by 10" by itself will increase torsional rigidity!

[re wider wheels and sticky tires]
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Yep, and those add weight, unless you spring for ultra lightweight forged or exotic material jobs, which of course increase price.
I'm fine with 17x8 wheels and 225 tires from the factory.


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Automotive companies are not, contrary to forum opinions, idiots who can’t understand market demands.
Frequently, they are...

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If there was really this gaping hole in the market for a US$30k, 300HP, 2,800lb sportscar that could be easily filled and was profitable, you can bet it would be filled by now. Heck, Toyota came close with their 86, but they could only achieve the price point with an anaemic 200HP boxer 4 from Subaru. They can’t even offer you a 300HP Toyota sportscar (Supra 2.0) for less than US$40k!
They made the mistake (for me anyway) of teaming up with BMW, guaranteeing the Supra would be both heavy and pricey. Doh...

I've said it before, but just plopping a Toyota/Lexus V6 in the front of a shortened/lightened FT86 would have been fricking ideal for me.


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Why don’t you start up your own company and build it then? Because clearly none of the established OEMs believe it can be done, or want to do it. What do you know that they don’t?
Yeah, that sounds practical... I do have industry experience in designing analyzing and testing of vehicles, so maybe I should find some investors...
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Old 09-06-2020, 08:34 PM   #340
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Old 09-06-2020, 08:38 PM   #341
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1. True up to a point, but not so relevant for the Z, since the platform is not as heavy, relative to sportscars with similar power or performance, as many people make out. For all people love to complain the 370Z is Ďtoo heavy,í itís actually about the same weight as the much newer and more expensive Supra or a 911 Carrera, and much lighter than the less powerful Mustang Ecoboost.

2. I think too many Twin owners forget that there are very few new 300HP+ cars that weigh less than 1450kg/3200lbs, and certainly none in the price bracket of the 370Z. The Twins scrape by at 1300kg/2900lbs primarily because they have lighter components (wheels, tyres, brakes, suspension, chassis) that are suitable for 200HP, but are not suitable for 300HP let alone 400HP at OEM levels of reliability, durability, and safety.

3. The topic of this thread, the 400Z is rumoured to have 400HP and 475Nm... compared to a lighter Twin engineered for 200HP from factory, an OEM canít just double the power and torque without increasing rigidity and uprating all the key components like brakes, suspension, wheels, tyres etc, which adds weight, especially in the affordable price bracket where ultra light but expensive materials are not cost effective.

4. Light weight combined with high power and performance from an OEM, with modern safety requirements, almost always costs more, because you need to resort to light weight and typically more expensive materials and engineering solutions. If it was easy to make a new, affordable 400HP sportscar that weighed no more than a Twin, whilst meeting all modern safety and consumer demands, then it would have been done already. Obviously it is not so easy. The closest thing to such a design brief would be a Lotus Exige - an excellent sportscar and track car, but much more expensive, a car competing with Porsches.

5. Sure, if you are dealing with less power and a lower performance ceiling, as well as less comfort. Like the Twins or the MX-5 Miata. And some people prefer that. Which is great. I just donít think it is particularly relevant to the 400Z, which will be dealing with more OEM power than a much more expensive 911 Carrera... so expecting it to still weigh less than the 911 whilst being orders of magnitude cheaper is unfair and unrealistic, you know?

6. Very few new car buyers want to daily drive a stripped track ready car - far too harsh and uncomfortable. And thatís clearly not the design goal of the Z cars (which are really sporty GT cars), or most sportscars to be honest (Supra, Cayman, 911). People who want light weight and high performance above all else are better served in a Lotus of some sort (or a boosted MX-5 or Twin) than any of those regular sportscars.

Tl:dr - really powerful, ultra lightweight, very affordable. Pick two, because expecting all three is just unrealistic.
1. The Supra and Carrera are luxury cars--the 370Z is not. The Ecoboost is also not, but the Ecoboost is not designed around a V6/I4T, nor is it a two seater. The Mustang is built for the V8. It also has a 107'' wheelbase and is 188'' long, and the 370Z has a 100'' wheelbase and is 166'' long, which is about the same at the 86, and we have rear seats. When you start looking at them side-by-side, it seems like the 370Z would have a profile similar to the S2000 and Miata, with the driver further back and the hood longer. Some of these proportion and weight constraints could have been because of the chassis this shares with other four seaters.



2 + 3. The lack of them doesn't mean it can't be done. Are you saying Mazda couldn't add 100 more horsepower to the Miata, stiffen the chassis, brakes, etc without adding over 800lbs? What if the 86 lost the rear seats, lost some length off the wheelbase and off the car length/width, added a NA k20 then the car would weigh much less, right, but probably not what a Miata could weigh because the chassis was designed for something bigger, right? Or, ask yourself, how is it that the Miata has similar hp/tq to the 86, yet they have a weight difference of 500lbs, all while having a similar price? Is the Miata under built for the power or the 86 is overbuilt for the power, or is it that they have different dimensions?

4. The ease of something has more to do with the logistics of mass producing a car more than the engineering constraints of designing a car around 300 or 400 horsepower with weight under 3000lbs. This is why Ford can offer a 300+hp car for $26k; it is because the chassis is purpose built for the Mustang, and the engine is used on like eight platforms. This is the problem because no one is making a RWD platform for sub 3000lb cars. Sub 3000lb cars get FWD econobox drivetrains. RWD is saved for luxury cars, which is why Nissan had to borrow the chassis from heavier cars. If Nissan had a RWD econobox chassis to make a sports car off of then they could do it. They don't, so they won't.

5. We don't know anything about the 400Z, and if it has 400hp with less weight than a 911 while being cheaper then who cares if that is unfair or unrealistic? The Mustang GT has more power than a base Carrera or S and costs $60-70k less with only a few hundred pounds difference in weight. What's the point about fairness?

6. The 86 is a GT car. It is the GT86 in fact, but I agree, most people don't actually want a sports car. They want a heavier GT car or sports sedan. They want something that looks sportier than it drives, but this is the FT86 forum, right? People here are looking for light weight sports cars, so their preferences are going to be for the next 300Z or 400Z, or whatever they call it, to be lighter. Will it happen given Nissan's logistical constraints? Most likely not.
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Old 09-06-2020, 09:09 PM   #342
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If it is so easy why isnít everyone doing it? US$30k is what Toyota/Subaru ask for a Twin (PP/tS) with the kind of half decent brakes, suspension and tyres that would be needed on a 300HP sportscar, right... and yet with the Twinís top trims you still only get a 205HP 4 banger from Toyobaru. But you think Nissan can easily give you a 300HP V6TT with no added weight for the same price? Why do people defend Toyobaruís stubborn decision not to offer a turbo with more power, but expect Nissan to give it to you for the same price as a NA Twin with only 2/3 the power? Double standards, thatís why.
Logistics.

Packages and higher trims are always overpriced by design. Look at the difference between the NISMO Z and the base Z and ask yourself if there is $15k in upgraded value. You are adding a $5k price to the 86 then saying the Z is priced the same.

The FA20D engine is a one off engine. The 300hp VR30 is shared across multiple platforms, so it is the new standard just like the VQ37 was the standard. In fact, 300hp is less power, so weight and price should be less than the outgoing 370Z, plus it should benefit from a modern design.

A turbo wouldn't fit into the current chassis. They want to keep it NA.

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I really think all this talk arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of the market, and the purpose of the Z cars. They are not (and apart from the 240Z never have been) light or Ďtrack readyí cars. They very early on evolved into comfortable, sporty GT cars that offered a balance of style, handling and performance. At times, as with the 300ZX TT, they rose to the point where they could hang with Corvettes, but for the most part, they have stayed in the lane of affordable sporty GT cars.
With the X came luxury. Before they were cheaper and lighter. They were used in racing. What they have been doesn't necessarily need to dictate where they have to go.

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Originally Posted by Red-86 View Post
And they may well do that... and yet, despite the Z not being any heavier than the Supra, or a 911 Carrera with less power for that matter, people will still bitch and moan about the Z being too heavy. I think itís a some kind of forum cognitive dissonance.
Exactly, you can buy a 981 Cayman S for 2900lbs, and it is a solid luxury car. The Supra is also a luxury car.

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Nissan have to face reality and live within their means. They can not afford to throw billions of R&D into some kind of cut price supercar killer with more power than a 911 Carrera that weighs less than an 86 for a similar price. The hard reality is that to save money, if the 400Z even gets to production, it will have to update and reuse the existing platform, reuse the Infiniti 3.0TT engine, and save development costs wherever possible. It may still produce an excellent car... if it is no heavier than the 370Z (remember, the Z is no heavier than the Supra, or a base 911) and it puts out 400HP, it will be a fun car that average enthusiasts can buy.
Right. Fun. There are many fun cars at a variety of weight classes, but several people here would like to see a light weight car, even at the expense of power.

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Expecting the Z to be all things to all people (comfortable GT cruiser, Japanese pony car, ultra light track day special etc) is unrealistic and unfair... itís not clear to me why the Z cops all these expectations yet people give the expensive Supra, including the underwhelming 2.0 version, a free pass.
No one is expecting the Z to be all things to all people. Life isn't fair, but in this case, you are mistaken because the Supra gets a lot of flack. What rock have you been hiding under?
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Old 09-06-2020, 09:26 PM   #343
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Bentley has plenty of HP. Still corners like dogshit.

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Old 09-06-2020, 09:50 PM   #344
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I
I really think all this talk arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of the market, and the purpose of the Z cars. They are not (and apart from the 240Z never have been) light or ‘track ready’ cars. They very early on evolved into comfortable, sporty GT cars that offered a balance of style, handling and performance. At times, as with the 300ZX TT, they rose to the point where they could hang with Corvettes, but for the most part, they have stayed in the lane of affordable sporty GT cars.
The entire first generation of Z cars were light, affordable sports cars. My step-father owned a first year 240Z and I owned a 1978 280Z. Both were fun and agile cars that were a blast to drive on twisty roads. I got rid of mine when I had my first son and needed a back seat. I bought my next Z, a 2003 350Z, when I no longer needed to haul my kids around all the time. By then, the Z had become more of a cruiser with pony car like torque and handling.

The Datsun 280Z was the car I liked best and felt the most comfortable in driving quickly on country roads until I completed my 2ZZ swapped 2000 Mr2 Spyder. I have owned 53 cars including some pony cars and another sports car but the only other car that has impressed me as much as the Z and my Spyder is my son's FR-S.

I know that I am not the "typical" American driver but I would love to see Nissan go back to producing cars like ones Datsun did. Of course, I know you cannot do that because now you have to include a couple hundred pounds of electronic gadgets and gizmos to satisfy the "typical" driver(?). God forbid he or she be disconnected from the internet and social networking long enough to actually connect to the car and enjoy the drive.
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Old 09-06-2020, 10:15 PM   #345
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I think the argument about weight and safety standards are overplayed without much legitimacy. Doesn't the existence of the 2300lb Miata or 2100lb Mirage make that argument obsolete?

The original Miata was 2100lbs with a 1.6l engine making 115hp/100tq. The current ND Miata weights 2300lbs with a 2.0l engine making 181hp/151tq. Interestingly, a 1.5l engine in a base model is available in some markets, and the car weighs 2100lbs.

What we want is just talk, which is possible from a cost and engineering perspective, but isn't logistically possible for Nissan. I return to what @Ohio Enthusiast said, which is that Nissan lacks the platform for a lighter weight car because it doesn't have a light weight, RWD, global architecture to build a new Z car on, so it will need to settle for the previous chassis. Unless they can find ways of pulling out weight, the car is likely to stay just as heavy.
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Old 09-06-2020, 11:10 PM   #346
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The entire first generation of Z cars were light, affordable sports cars. My step-father owned a first year 240Z and I owned a 1978 280Z. Both were fun and agile cars that were a blast to drive on twisty roads. I got rid of mine when I had my first son and needed a back seat. I bought my next Z, a 2003 350Z, when I no longer needed to haul my kids around all the time. By then, the Z had become more of a cruiser with pony car like torque and handling.
240Z was a 2300 lb. car, but somehow it ballooned to 2800 lb. by 1978! The 1979 280ZX (which I'm no fan of) was actually lighter than the '78 280Z, but the rear suspension design went to crap with semi trailing arms vs. the S30's Chapman struts...

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The Datsun 280Z was the car I liked best and felt the most comfortable in driving quickly on country roads until I completed my 2ZZ swapped 2000 Mr2 Spyder. I have owned 53 cars including some pony cars and another sports car but the only other car that has impressed me as much as the Z and my Spyder is my son's FR-S.
OMG, 2ZZ swapped Mr. Spyder! I 100% would have bought a Mr. Two Spider if it did not look like a bar of soap.

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I know that I am not the "typical" American driver but I would love to see Nissan go back to producing cars like ones Datsun did.
X 1,000,000

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Of course, I know you cannot do that because now you have to include a couple hundred pounds of electronic gadgets and gizmos to satisfy the "typical" driver(?).
Well, AKshually, many would have argued that replicating the S13 240SX in a modern car would be impossible, yet we have the FT86 which weighs about the same, has a MUCH stiffer chassis and more power, and it's 2020! Progress is possible...
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Old 09-06-2020, 11:27 PM   #347
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Exactly, you can buy a 981 Cayman S for 2900lbs, and it is a solid luxury car. The Supra is also a luxury car.
The 981 is indeed a *solid* luxury car, as was my 987 non-S 2.9. Both weigh 3050 lb. in the real world. SOLID is in fact a *great* word for the car, as it felt to me like a bank-vault. Which is great! Kind of... But after driving my 987 and my BRZ back-to-back on the street and at the track last year, I definitely preferred the BRZ. It feels more immediate, more FUN. Bank-vault solidity is great but at what cost? I miss the flimsy chassis of my 2300 lb. 255rwhp 240Z

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There are many fun cars at a variety of weight classes, but several people here would like to see a light weight car, even at the expense of power.
YES!
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Old 09-07-2020, 12:18 AM   #348
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OMG, 2ZZ swapped Mr. Spyder! I 100% would have bought a Mr. Two Spider if it did not look like a bar of soap.
Yeah, LOL, they are not the prettiest things around. The hard top helps a lot. Once you have driven one with a 2ZZ or 2GR, they start looking a whole lot less ugly to you.
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Old 09-07-2020, 09:56 AM   #349
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God forbid he or she be disconnected from the internet and social networking long enough to actually connect to the car and enjoy the drive.
Completely agree with you!!!!!!

I found it ironic that one of the biggest complaints about the current 370Z (often from people who've never driven one) is that the 'infotainment system is dated'. Really? Is that what matters most in a sports car? The user interface for playing iTunes songs???

Another common complaint is that the 370Z is 'dated'. So what? In what way? As long as the chassis still offers competitive handling and weight, what's wrong with it being some years old?

If a top priority is a state-of-the-art infotainment user-interface, then I humbly suggest that maybe a sports car isn't what the person is looking for. Which, judging from plummeting sports car sales in the US, appears to be the case. There don't seem to be many people left who care more about how a car simply feels to drive than the features of the infotainment system.

So many people whine about the lack of simple, analog sports cars, with pure, linear, naturally-aspirated engines, engaging manual transmissions, with good performance at a reasonable price. Nissan continued to sell the 370Z which provided all of those, and almost no one bought it.
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Old 09-07-2020, 10:44 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by AnalogMan View Post
Completely agree with you!!!!!!



I found it ironic that one of the biggest complaints about the current 370Z (often from people who've never driven one) is that the 'infotainment system is dated'. Really? Is that what matters most in a sports car? The user interface for playing iTunes songs???



Another common complaint is that the 370Z is 'dated'. So what? In what way? As long as the chassis still offers competitive handling and weight, what's wrong with it being some years old?



If a top priority is a state-of-the-art infotainment user-interface, then I humbly suggest that maybe a sports car isn't what the person is looking for. Which, judging from plummeting sports car sales in the US, appears to be the case. There don't seem to be many people left who care more about how a car simply feels to drive than the features of the infotainment system.



So many people whine about the lack of simple, analog sports cars, with pure, linear, naturally-aspirated engines, engaging manual transmissions, with good performance at a reasonable price. Nissan continued to sell the 370Z which provided all of those, and almost no one bought it.
I HATE that manufacturers even put radios in cars. There like $2k why? A $200 aftermarket unit does 10x as much. They shouldn't be in that business at all. Anyway I only want to mirror my screen if anything anyhow.

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