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Old 09-15-2021, 10:47 AM   #43
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Also concerning that your idle speed is SO LOW. it should be around ~970rpm not 600rpm
Stock idle is around 650RPM.
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Old 09-15-2021, 10:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by itschris View Post
You seem confident, so I'd trust your timing.

I'm still stuck on the vacuum leak theory. When in injection mode 1 (PI), LTFT + STFT hits 23ish. The car switches over to injection mode 2 (DI), LTFT and STFT is zeroed and climbs back to 22ish. Since those values are the same and open loop runs lean, I think the fuel side of the afr is likely correct and there's just too much air. If something was off with your fueling I think I'd expect to see a mismatch between fuel trims for each injection mode.

I would probably retest for leaks with brake clean. I haven't tried propane but that stuff is pretty dense. I imagine you'd have to literally touch the hose/nozzle to the leak to see any effect. Failing that, I'd test for leaks with smoke. Mostly to rule out the chance that you're forgetting to check somewhere.

Edit: I missed your post saying it runs with the MAF unplugged. I would double check your upstream O2 sensor is seated, and if it is try a new one
I am 100% certain it is not a vacuum leak now. I did a smoke test twice and i could not hear air escaping or see any smoke. I did, however, pull one of the evap lines under the intake manifold to simulate if the smoke would actually be visible from a hard-to-reach area. yes, i could see the smoke coming out from under the intake.
I will look at the upstream o2 sensor tomorrow.


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The car definitely sounds like it's running good ones it is running on its own. The odd sounds you're hearing sound quite normal. Pressures can only be determined or specified by your engine builder (IAG). But as mentioned, it seems fine and nothing to worry about at the temps you describe. I would only worry if pressures were VERY different at such a temp, like below 10 psi or above 60 or something maybe. Even still, you would want to verify with IAG what the correct pressure specifications are. They should have this information or at least provide you with some guide.

I have no experience with the level of skill involved in the work you're doing, but with how hard you've been working to find a vacuum leak, I'm still wondering if there's something wrong on the fueling side. Fuel pump has some issues?? Any sensors on the fueling side? The MAF seems to be reading good values, but your STFT is bumpy. At least when it stabilizes. Obviously, prior to that it's not even getting readings, which at this point I have come to admit that it should not be that way (at least not for anywhere near that long).

This definitely seems to be where the issue lies, almost guaranteed. I mean the car struggles and can't idle while the logs are showing no data for STFT/LTFT, while everything else is in order. Then when you stabilize the vehicle and things are running, STFT could still be better and hops around a bit, probably more than it should.

I think if you had a vacuum leak, your problem would be slightly different, and we would see crazier MAF readings or crappy AFR even when you do get it idling on its own. If the AFR was bad enough that it wouldn't want to idle on the initial start, why would it all of a sudden fix itself a bit and start idling pretty decent after you stabilize it? A vacuum leak usually indicates consistent AFR problems. Or if the car can't idle from the start, I don't see how it would adjust itself enough to idle later.

Just the thoughts flowing through my mind...
I couldn't get a hold of IAG until recently. They said that a safe zone for oil pressure would be 10psi per 1k rpm and mentioned my 19-20psi at operating temps are fine.

So the issue does remain. I am starting to think it is my fueling system as well. I forgot to mention that my car sat for 4 months with E85 til I drained most of it out and flushed it with 91. Not only that, but I am running 100 octane right now though.

I went forward in reving the engine rpm at idle around 2k-3k to help with ring seating against the cylinder walls.

https://datazap.me/u/jrhudson/some-b...-8-10-25-34-35
1st one is from start up. My LTFT was around ~ 14-20%. It does still seem high. Engine sounds normal except for this weird knocking sound. I hear only on the high pressure fuel pump side. I don't hear it on the passenger side(RH). or is this normal and it's just i haven't heard this engine in 6 months.

Fuel system status 4 is when the HPFP is on, correct?



No oil leaks( so far)

I remember during the data logging when i fired up the car that cylinder 3 and 4 were misfiring, but only at start up. It wouldn't misfire for those cylinders every time, but sometimes cylinder 2 would misfire at startup. Every time a cylinder would misfire, it would only be once on the log, though. Maybe a weak spark/coil packs could cause this?
But I'm leaning toward the fuel pump issue since the AEM 340 pump I have has been sitting in that old fuel. I might switch to the walbro unit if my AEM one is mucked up from the old E85. I have purchased a new fuel filter I'll pull out the fuel assembly tomorrow and i also got a fuel injector tester/cleaner for the stock port injectors im using that were sitting for more than a year.

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Fuel trims still seem high to me at around +20 combined. If you're positive there's no leaks it'll be sorted out when you get tuned.

I don't think it's a normal characteristic of a new build, but you could double check and ask in the datalog thread.

No you're right. even when i put apply some revs around 2-3k the LTFT would get a little better but still above +/- 10%.

Everything is seemingly fine mechanically wise. Other than the knocking sound from the video above. but I am waiting on my turbo kit. I wasn't planning on doing any real driving until i get my turbo kit installed as well. but i would like it to start up fine and no be running lean like it is.

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Old 09-16-2021, 12:18 AM   #45
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If you decide to replace your upstream O2 sensor, I can’t stress enough the importance of purchasing an OEM part from a local dealer. Stay away from aftermarket sensors or even “OEM” sensors from online sellers. There are too many junky aftermarket manufacturers and now you have to also watch out for counterfeit OEM parts.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:59 AM   #46
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I am 100% certain it is not a vacuum leak now. I did a smoke test twice and i could not hear air escaping or see any smoke. I did, however, pull one of the evap lines under the intake manifold to simulate if the smoke would actually be visible from a hard-to-reach area. yes, i could see the smoke coming out from under the intake.
I will look at the upstream o2 sensor tomorrow.
Ahh, well good to know you're set there.

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Fuel system status 4 is when the HPFP is on, correct?
No, fuel system status just means warmup (1), closed loop (2), open loop (4). Look at injection mode d4-s, which tells you if you're using PI (1), DI (2), PI + DI (3).

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But I'm leaning toward the fuel pump issue since the AEM 340 pump I have has been sitting in that old fuel. I might switch to the walbro unit if my AEM one is mucked up from the old E85. I have purchased a new fuel filter I'll pull out the fuel assembly tomorrow and i also got a fuel injector tester/cleaner for the stock port injectors im using that were sitting for more than a year.
I think you're on the right track. I'm going to backtrack on my previous post, you can probably ignore the O2 sensor.

https://datazap.me/u/jrhudson/some-b...1863-1911-1948

To me it looks like the ECU is trying to lean the mixture out every time the injection mode switches from 3 (PI + DI) to 2 (DI). The pattern continues over the whole log, I just marked a short part. I think this would suggest DI is providing the expected amount of fuel, and PI isn't. At least that's the easier one to inspect?

I'm still confused why injection mode 2 (DI only) at idle maintains the high positive LTFT. Maybe there's something special about idle. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

Edit: Are you sure your stock tune isn't scaled for larger injectors?
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:34 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by itschris View Post
Ahh, well good to know you're set there.


No, fuel system status just means warmup (1), closed loop (2), open loop (4). Look at injection mode d4-s, which tells you if you're using PI (1), DI (2), PI + DI (3).



I think you're on the right track. I'm going to backtrack on my previous post, you can probably ignore the O2 sensor.

https://datazap.me/u/jrhudson/some-b...1863-1911-1948

To me it looks like the ECU is trying to lean the mixture out every time the injection mode switches from 3 (PI + DI) to 2 (DI). The pattern continues over the whole log, I just marked a short part. I think this would suggest DI is providing the expected amount of fuel, and PI isn't. At least that's the easier one to inspect?

I'm still confused why injection mode 2 (DI only) at idle maintains the high positive LTFT. Maybe there's something special about idle. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

Edit: Are you sure your stock tune isn't scaled for larger injectors?
ahhh thanks for the info on injector modes.

Yes, I thought it would be these old PI that might have caused some issues and i don't think the DI will be the issue. I got them cleaned along with the DW700cc PI. But i didn't clean the stock PI since at the time i didn't think i would need them.

LTFT seems to stay high no matter what the injector mode.

I wouldn't know if the stock tune is scaled for larger injectors. i only have the stock PI injectors installed on there and those are the same ones that came from the factory. Would my stock tune be different from other 86/frs/brz?

edit: plan is to drive her like maybe half a mile to see if anything is amiss. Won't likely be going further than that. will report back with any updates.

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Old 09-16-2021, 08:54 AM   #48
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You mentioned in another thread that you accidentally plugged a temperature connection to a knock sensor. Could that have "shorted out" something in the ECU?
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Old 09-16-2021, 09:12 AM   #49
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Definitely a weird clacking noise, but doesn't sound like it is something serious to be concerned about... I hope Not sure what it would be though, that's always hard to track down.

Your AEM fuel pump is supposed to be designed to withstand Ethanol no problem, but I have no experience with aftermarket pumps so I can't say much there. I just have a feeling it doesn't have so much to do with the fuel that sat in there (which you drained), but rather that something may be faulty.

I wonder if it would actually be helpful to just get a custom tune started right now to see if it solves your problems. Because with some of your aftermarket stuff in there, and a fresh rebuilt engine, something just doesn't seem to be quite right. But you had it running prior to the rebuild, so it doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Old 09-17-2021, 11:29 AM   #50
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Definitely a weird clacking noise, but doesn't sound like it is something serious to be concerned about... I hope Not sure what it would be though, that's always hard to track down.

Your AEM fuel pump is supposed to be designed to withstand Ethanol no problem, but I have no experience with aftermarket pumps so I can't say much there. I just have a feeling it doesn't have so much to do with the fuel that sat in there (which you drained), but rather that something may be faulty.

I wonder if it would actually be helpful to just get a custom tune started right now to see if it solves your problems. Because with some of your aftermarket stuff in there, and a fresh rebuilt engine, something just doesn't seem to be quite right. But you had it running prior to the rebuild, so it doesn't make a lot of sense.

The one major change that I noted that OP made (in post #24) was dropping compression ratio down from stock 12.5:1 to 10.5:1 but he stated that his tuner said that shouldn't have an affect on the operation of the engine. Are we all in agreement with his tuner?
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Old 09-17-2021, 11:40 AM   #51
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The one major change that I noted that OP made (in post #24) was dropping compression ratio down from stock 12.5:1 to 10.5:1 but he stated that his tuner said that shouldn't have an affect on the operation of the engine. Are we all in agreement with his tuner?
I do recall that and just took assumption that his tuner was right. I guess you make a good point, but I don't know enough about that to comment. Certainly wouldn't hurt to ask around or ask another tuner possibly for confirmation.

From a little googling, it seems that in the case of compression ratio increasing, a tune is kind of required to change the timing. Can't find anything on decreasing the compression ratio in that regard, at least not from a quick search. It's something to think about.
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Old 09-18-2021, 12:14 AM   #52
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Okay, i pulled the fuel pump assembly and everything looks fine. I was missing the C clip from holding down the spring for the top part of the fuel assembly, but i just replaced the c clip. I also changed the fuel filter sock, the one old didnt look too bad though. Doing this resulted in no changes. Still starts and struggles to idle until car dies.

I ordered an adapter for the fuel lines so i could have the option of connecting a fuel pressure gauge on it. To actually see the pressure of the fuel pump.
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Old 09-18-2021, 12:31 AM   #53
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Definitely a weird clacking noise, but doesn't sound like it is something serious to be concerned about... I hope Not sure what it would be though, that's always hard to track down.

Your AEM fuel pump is supposed to be designed to withstand Ethanol no problem, but I have no experience with aftermarket pumps so I can't say much there. I just have a feeling it doesn't have so much to do with the fuel that sat in there (which you drained), but rather that something may be faulty.

I wonder if it would actually be helpful to just get a custom tune started right now to see if it solves your problems. Because with some of your aftermarket stuff in there, and a fresh rebuilt engine, something just doesn't seem to be quite right. But you had it running prior to the rebuild, so it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Yea, I'm sure the pump is fine. I pulled the assembly and changed the fuel filter. To check the fuel pump, I purchased an adapter for the fuel lines with a 1/8 npt port for a fuel pressure gauge. it feels like there isn't enough fuel pressure? i don't know.

As for the tune, maybe it'll fix my issue, but I still think it's something small that I forgot or is broken. I want to say my stock PI injectors are bad. I pulled them and used this little device i saw from some youtube video that pulses the injectors if you connect to them to see the flow of them. Not really sure if the injectors are bad or not since they differently from one another. sorry for the video crap video but it was difficult by myself with this one. Doing this "cleaning" didnt do anything. Problem remains






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The one major change that I noted that OP made (in post #24) was dropping compression ratio down from stock 12.5:1 to 10.5:1 but he stated that his tuner said that shouldn't have an affect on the operation of the engine. Are we all in agreement with his tuner?
Yes, I keep thinking in the back of my mind that my tuner might be wrong, but my tuner isn't just some random dude. CSG Zach is my tuner. He could be wrong but based on my power goals he recommended the 10.5:1 block.

I have asked him about this with a datalog, but only said it might be timing. he said this happens to alot of built FA20 motors. But I know i timed this motor correctly. No further info on his end about my issues.


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I do recall that and just took assumption that his tuner was right. I guess you make a good point, but I don't know enough about that to comment. Certainly wouldn't hurt to ask around or ask another tuner possibly for confirmation.

From a little googling, it seems that in the case of compression ratio increasing, a tune is kind of required to change the timing. Can't find anything on decreasing the compression ratio in that regard, at least not from a quick search. It's something to think about.
I'd love to ask another tuner about this. I keep thinking it's the tune or ecu.





So i happen to just walk to film my engine and it does this. I was doing a datalog as well so there's data on it.

https://datazap.me/u/jrhudson/so-it-...37-46-50-51-52






edit: Still dies after the startup but will sometimes start up and have a somewhat weird idle and misfire a little and eventually go to idle rpm. I will drive it. I need to put the bash bar on there, and we'll see if the car can even move 1000 ft and back. Hopefully it'll either post a CEL or just fix it's lean condition.
Next thing I'll check after driving her is the spark plugs and ignition coil packs. i'll recheck the gap on my plugs. Theyre aftermarket as well, but per Zach these would be fine even NA.

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Old 09-18-2021, 01:03 AM   #54
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You mentioned in another thread that you accidentally plugged a temperature connection to a knock sensor. Could that have "shorted out" something in the ECU?
Maybe, but since those 2 sensors still work now i doubt it caused damage. I did check the continuity on the harness
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Old 09-18-2021, 11:29 AM   #55
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Yes, I keep thinking in the back of my mind that my tuner might be wrong, but my tuner isn't just some random dude. CSG Zach is my tuner. He could be wrong but based on my power goals he recommended the 10.5:1 block.

I have asked him about this with a datalog, but only said it might be timing. he said this happens to alot of built FA20 motors. But I know i timed this motor correctly. No further info on his end about my issues.

I'd love to ask another tuner about this. I keep thinking it's the tune or ecu.
Well, we all know that Zach knows these cars like the back of his hand. He did my flex-fuel tune and I found him very easy to work with. I was able to get some custom programming out of him with my setup by having him write four different power levels on the four maps.

So, I was wondering if all of your sensors are OEM or do you have any aftermarket sensors installed that could be at fault?

And......

What happens when you disconnect the upstream O2 sensor and try to start with that disconnected?
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Old 09-18-2021, 12:42 PM   #56
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Well, we all know that Zach knows these cars like the back of his hand. He did my flex-fuel tune and I found him very easy to work with. I was able to get some custom programming out of him with my setup by having him write four different power levels on the four maps.

So, I was wondering if all of your sensors are OEM or do you have any aftermarket sensors installed that could be at fault?

And......

What happens when you disconnect the upstream O2 sensor and try to start with that disconnected?
Zack only says that if everything is fine, the car should start up fine. Even with the compression ratios changed.
My custom tune is for built motor with a turbo on it. Not built motor with NA tune.

I'm just trying to get my motor running okay without the turbo first, and I also don't have the turbo kit yet. Over 2 months waiting =(..

As for the upstream o2 unplugged start up, i havent tried this yet. what would this do?
When you say to disconnect the O2 sensor you mean just the connector right?

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