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Old 08-01-2019, 12:59 AM   #1
Impureclient
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Any electricians in here?

I have a 160 sq ft space that I need to run a 20 amp fridge, 30 amp wash/dryer, 50 amp stove/oven, 8 amp wall A/C, one 20 amp line to run
about 8-10 receptacles inside and one 20 amp line to run 4 outside receptacles.

That is 148 amps total so a 150 amp main electrical service panel is all I need correct? Should I just get a 200 amp in case I need to add anything
to the outside later or maybe a small plug in 13 amp heater once in a while. The 200 amp panel I'm looking at comes with about $120 worth of free
circuit breakers which makes it actually cheaper than the 100 or 150 ones after buying all the breakers separately.
I'm not seeing why I should buy the 150 amp panel unless I just want to save a little space. Does all that seem right? The fella I was talking to at Lowes
says the 200 amp deal is the way to go.

Also on those two 20 amp lines running all the receptacles, should I just use GFCI on both of those with one on the outside and the other running through
bathroom/kitchen/rest of inside? Or should I run the outside ones and then the kitchen/bath ones all on one GFCI breaker and then the rest of the 8 or so
lines inside on one regular circuit breaker?
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:20 AM   #2
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what kind of fridge is this that consumes a full 20A?

and code requires 2-20A kitchen small appliance circuits (normally the fridge is on one of these two circuits), as well as 1 dedicated 20A bathroom outlet circuit. all kitchen, bath, and exterior circuits are required to be gfci protected. the kitchen and bath circuits cannot serve another room, or the outside outlets.

is this a main panel or a sub panel?
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:24 AM   #3
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I think you should hire an electrician. No joke.

You don't add up the amps of the breakers to get the total size of the panel. You analyze the actual peak load you'll see. You're going to run all that shit at once? I doubt it.

Going to a bigger panel is fine. You just need bigger wires feeding the panel, unless you downsize the main breaker.

As for how to run things, I'd look at code.
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:31 AM   #4
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I just guessed on the fridge. It's only a small 10.1 cu ft one that will be used. Something like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Magic-Ch...00WE/302245066

So it looks like I am good with the 20 amp breaker for fridge and the other for the rest of the kitchen. Can that other interior 20 amp GFCI be the kitchen/bathroom line together?

This is a main panel. This one : https://www.lowes.com/pd/GE-PowerMar...e-Pack/1001089
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:41 AM   #5
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I need to learn so I can do this over and over on my own. I have done electrical stuff a little here and there including wiring a whole new addition when I was like 15 and I know that house for sure hasn't burned down yet.
I figure by now it's time to start learning how to do it all correctly all the way from installing the main panel all the way to the receptacle as well as a general electrician would.
I am getting into building tiny homes/shipping container builds and want to know how everything goes together so I can do it just as good and preferably better than just hiring it all out.

The Lowes guy recommended running 12g wire to all the receptacles. As I understand it I cn run up to 10 outlets on 12g wire up to 100 ft.
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:37 AM   #6
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I need to learn so I can do this over and over on my own. I have done electrical stuff a little here and there including wiring a whole new addition when I was like 15 and I know that house for sure hasn't burned down yet.
I figure by now it's time to start learning how to do it all correctly all the way from installing the main panel all the way to the receptacle as well as a general electrician would.
I am getting into building tiny homes/shipping container builds and want to know how everything goes together so I can do it just as good and preferably better than just hiring it all out.

The Lowes guy recommended running 12g wire to all the receptacles. As I understand it I cn run up to 10 outlets on 12g wire up to 100 ft.
I'll ring up @soundman98 for you. He is pretty smart when it comes to that wiring stuff.


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PS - I see he has already been here -

(read the previous posts - humfrz- )
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:09 PM   #7
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You don't add up the amps of the breakers to get the total size of the panel. You analyze the actual peak load you'll see.
That's what I did. I added up the peak amps each device will use in the house and that's how I came up with the 148ish figure. I think I will be OK with the 200 amp panel, I just wanted it to be smaller if I could do so. I see what you are saying about peak load though better the way you said it than the guy at Lowes descibed what I need. I 'm sure the dryer, stove, A/C, etc. will all not be used at once. It seems like I should be really only using a 100 amp panel since it will be a wall unit A/C or maybe just do a 125 since we are talking about only 160 sq ft here.
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:52 PM   #8
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I have 3700+ square feet of home. With 6 people, the highest load I've ever seen was around 140 amps. Almost everything is electric, including a car. 200 amps for 160 sq feet is ridiculous. 100 amps is probably overkill.

What will you actually use all at once?

Also fuck what the guy at Lowes says. He works at Lowes for a reason.
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:00 AM   #9
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I have 3700+ square feet of home. With 6 people, the highest load I've ever seen was around 140 amps. Almost everything is electric, including a car. 200 amps for 160 sq feet is ridiculous. 100 amps is probably overkill.

What will you actually use all at once?

Also fuck what the guy at Lowes says. He works at Lowes for a reason.
That's what I was thinking when I walked into the store since I was looking at 100 amp panels. This was a department head that also said he worked a little in electrical/plumbing stuff who gave me this advice. This is also while I am asking on here too, to make it a clear and the best decision for what I am trying to do. I'm no going to use it at all since they will be sold but I just wanted to future proof it and overbuild it so there are no worries later down the line. As an example, I am insulating these things as close to I can to like a refrigerator. I want buyers to not be left wanting more.
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Old 08-02-2019, 01:15 AM   #10
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a little story first. about 20 years ago, my family was camping and ended up near another camper who turned out to be one of the higher-up's within home depot. at the time, my dad had around 15 years of electrical experience, and wasn't very happy with where he was. one thing led to another, and they started seriously talking about fast-tracking him to be the head of the local home depot electrical department.

the talks were going great until they got to the pay. they refused to pay him more than $18/hr, with only the potential for yearly cost-of-living increases, which was a fraction of what he was making as an electrician. he didn't take the job.

home improvement stores don't hire people that know what they're talking about because the people that have the valuable experience cost too much.

you're putting way too much faith into a home improvement store employee that's getting paid a low wage, assuming he's keeping up to date on something that largely doesn't affect him in any way.




100A should be more than adequate. the more important aspect here is to make sure that you're getting a large enough 100A panel. a very rough count on circuits puts you at around 14 circuits based on the information given(oven 220, washer 220, water heater 220, ac[definitely do a 20A circuit for this], fridge, kitchen 1, kitchen 2, bathroom, lighting[didn't specify, but going to need it, could be part of a gen purp circuit], gen purp 1, gen purp 2), so i would go no less than a 20-space panel.


isn't there also a water heater that must be installed? i assume that'll be electric as well--my assumption would be 220/20A.

as far as electrical code, i highly recommend you start with something like this, as it's easier to understand then the national electrical code books. and it's got pretty pictures:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

i have a copy of that, specifically because one inspector i've had to deal with approves/deny's all work based on those pictorals, despite some of the pictorals not being 100% accurate for the situation.

first and foremost, it does not cover everything. it paints with a very wide brush. generally speaking, following what's in there as a guide will be code complaint. but it does not account for any local building code amendments.

the other thing i need to bring up is AFCI protection. 2014 code fully implemented AFCI protection on almost all circuits that are not GFCI protected. this varies widely from place to place. part of illinois where i work is on 2014 code but then i also work in indiana, who is on 2008 code, but struck AFCI's from their approved code due to teething issues with the new technology when they originally tried to add AFCI protection from 2002 code and it turned into a major fiasco.

my illinois/indiana experience is unique, as indiana is a state-ran code, meaning all of indiana is on 2008 nec code. the local inspectors can't ask for anything beyond what is required in 2008 nec code. but illinois, while officially on 2008 code, is a township system, meaning that each township has the power to adopt newer versions of the code, or institute their own specific additions, which is legal as long as their additions go above and beyond the version of code they are on. it means that there's dozens of tiny rules in various towns that don't get applied anywhere else, but still need to be followed.

you can see by this page how versions of code change from state to state, so if you're working in multiple area's the rules can be different, but notice that illinois says it's on 2008, while part of my experience knows that is only partly correct.
https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoptio...-adoption-maps




to your question about sharing a circuit for the kitchen and bath: no. the kitchen must have 2-20A dedicated circuits minimum. it's written in the code that these circuits cannot serve any other outlets. and the same goes for the dedicated 20A bathroom circuit. it must only serve the bathroom outlet, and no where else. code does allow multiple bathroom's to be served by the same 20A circuit, but that is not a situation i see you doing.

as far as "doing everything with 20A" it's a very homeowner thing to do. sorta "if a little gasoline on a fire is good, dump the whole things on there to be better!" thinking.

general purpose outlets are exactly that, general purpose. think on how you use the outlets within your own residence. to charge a phone here, a laptop there, maybe plug in a light or two. the general rule of thumb i go by is roughly 10 openings(lights or outlets) per circuit.

forums can be your best friend
https://www.mikeholt.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/003753.html

12 gauge is more expensive than 14 gauge. and overall, the only real benefit is slightly more ampacity within the circuit(overall openings count doesn't change), and reducing the physical material you would need to get to perform the job.

per code, any residential 15A or 20A branch circuit can have 15A outlets on them, so there's no real reason to pay extra for 20A outlets unless you're really feeling special. the only time a 20A outlet is required is for dedicated appliances-- like a water heater, or an a/c unit.
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Old 08-02-2019, 02:19 AM   #11
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a little story first....or an a/c unit.
Much thanks for writing all that and all the help you and @jsimon7777 are giving here. It takes a lot to write all that and when talking in person it would be like a minute. The problem is all the people I'm talking to at the home improvement stores either give me some sort of kind of correct info like I've gotten so far or and in most cases look at me like a deer in headlights when I ask some questions that I am coming up with.

These units will be probably sold close by but I have a shipper that I have contacted that will get them anywhere I want in the U.S..
The trick is to design everything so it can be dropped on site most anywhere and if a change has to be done it will be easy. For instance in our climate zone I only need R30 in the ceiling but in Asheville,NC where they might go(and where we plan to move), they need R38. I want to "overbuild so they are at least safe up to zone 5. The electric and plumbing codes is all over the place in that span of area, so that is where I want to make sure it's kind of all covered.

As I design and build these I also know I will have to keep record of everything since...and this probably is backwards...I will need engineered plans made up so if some body buys these, they can get that for the government officials to OK it all for sure(since I overbuilt them). Even my county wanted signed and sealed engineering documents for me to just put this thing in my backyard to work on. If a hurricane rolled over my house, that container would be the only thing left over but they still want plans...

These small container homes are sold all over Ebay, Craigslist and even Amazon and done very poorly and for way more than I intend to sell mine for. If they are doing it half ass and it's working for them, I need a piece of that pie and since I don't want to sell something that is the minimum to get by, I think I can do well here.

Thanks again for helping out since I want very badly to leave this inhumane humid and fiercely hot Florida hellhole and this new venture will hopefully expedite that process faster than just working my paver business can ever do in the time I want to be out of here.

This looks like the electrical code along with plumbing, mechanical and building codes too made by the same publisher...go for this instead? : https://www.amazon.com/Code-Check-Il...4727579&sr=8-2

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Old 08-02-2019, 03:38 AM   #12
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Code varies by jurisdiction. It's all quite complicated. If you're trying to make a business of this, you probably want to pay an architect to draw up plans that should meet code in most places and then license them to you so you can send them out with your units. You'd probably need structural engineering plans too, also licensed. Designs for foundations and anchoring. Details of all sorts of things, like how water is hooked up to the building.

Or you can just say "fuck it" to all of that and roll the dice. Hopefully nobody dies or gets injured and nobody sues you. Hopefully your customers realize that your plans, building out, and design won't necessarily work for their jurisdiction and nobody sues you.

Yeah, there's a lot of red tape and bullshit. There's also good reasons for a lot of red tape and bullshit. There 's also bad reasons for other parts of the red tape and bullshit.
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Old 08-02-2019, 09:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
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the kitchen and bath circuits cannot serve another room, or the outside outlets.
Oops?... Though I suspected that and wouldn't leave this if we sell the place. It's safer than what I was doing, which was an extension cord for the table saw... But only because I know exactly how it's wired and would never use if the bathroom is in use (i.e. no woodworking while we have a house guest)

I hate how this place is wired. 2 slots left. Need more than that. No way to get more wire in existing conduit. And the garage line has suspected bad/broken conduit so intermittent ground failure only the Volt's charger detects. I really need to schedule a helpful electrician, fix the garage, get updated wires run for ceiling fans upstairs (need to get the fans though), fix the deck outlet that was done poorly last time and failed almost immediately, and figure out how to run power for the home theater and the workshop, and probably one for the garage. So 5-6 new circuits...

Though I'm thankful for the kitchen requirements. No problem running the espresso machine here.

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Old 08-02-2019, 10:14 PM   #14
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This looks like the electrical code along with plumbing, mechanical and building codes too made by the same publisher...go for this instead? : https://www.amazon.com/Code-Check-Il...4727579&sr=8-2
the first comment perfectly summarizes why i would not recommend that version.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-r...SIN=1631869027

it's 32 pages for 4 trades. there is no possible way to cover that much material in any useful depth for any of those trades. i'm somewhat happy with the electrical-only guide(also 32 pages), so based on that, i tentatively recommend the other single-trade-specific guides.



something i was going to bring up in my last post, but slipped my mind is to consider how trailers and mobile homes are built. i'm somewhat near elkhart indiana, which is the RV and mobile home manufacturer headquarters.

from what i was told a very long time ago, trailers and mobile homes are certified as a complete unit--at the time, i was told they are UL listed, but i don't know how true that part is. they don't follow any common trade codes, but are acceptable just about everywhere.

it might be worth investigating the certification that those get.
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