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Old 06-27-2014, 04:00 AM   #15
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Also in terms of the 15 vs. 30 year loans, I would say not one is better than the other. It all depends on the situation. The variance in APR is hardly noticeable, and in most cases it makes more sense to go with the 30 year, because of the unforseen expenses in the future. If you can pay it off in 10-15 years, then congrats. The reason 30 years is available is because most people are buying their first home at 30-35, which would put you right at retirement age when it's paid off.

I can tell you most clients I work with still do not pay off their home before they retire, as they tend to upgrade throughout their lifetime (job, family etc.).
Just looked up some rates. National average for a 30 year mortgage is 4.22%. for 15 year, it's 3.46%. Average house price is $311,400 accross the US.

$311,400house purchase price (assuming 10% down), so downpayment would be $31,140 (leaving out taxes in this case, although that will make it ~$300 more a month in california)`

Monthly payment for the 30 year is $1373.80 (both financing $280,260 after downpayment)
Monthly payment for the 15 year is $1998.03

Total out of pocket for the 30 year would be $494,562.81 (not counting downpayment on either)
Total out of pocket for the 15 year would be $359,645.24

Difference for the same house is $134,917.57 by choosing the 15 year mortgage. There are plenty of fun things you can do with $135k.

Here's where it gets interesting. Average car payment in the US is $457/Month. Buy a used car with cash, stop buying your energy drinks, expensive coffee, or alcohol and try going on a budget, and I bet you could find that extra $167 to make up for the difference in mortgage payment.

Little lifestyle change and you just saved $135k by doing what your grandparents told you to do (don't buy everything on credit). It'll take 15 years of a little drive and sacrifice for a lifetime of an appreciating asset.
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Old 06-27-2014, 04:15 AM   #16
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Always pay downy our high interest debt first and work your way down from there.
PS- Most people who have made it would tell you to pay down your lowest debt first, regardless of interest rate. It's the idea of "seeing" things get paid off that gives people the ambition and will to get them attacking debt aggressively (budgeting REALLY comes in handy here). You pay on something that take some years to pay off, there is not a tangable success…you still have the payments. You knock out a $2000 credit card in a couple months, add that payment to your next biggest debt, you then pay that one off quicker, and roll both payments into the third biggest debt and so on. Sounds counterproductive, but have you ever heard of "snowballing" your debt? It works. I'm living proof of it. We paid our civic off 3 years early using this idea after paying off 5 credit cards!

I always suggest to my clients to "snowball" starting with their lowest debt and working to their highest. Learned this from Dave Ramsey a couple years ago and it has had amazing success. The calls are always fun when I have a client call me up telling me they just knocked out their third or fourth credit card.

(financial advisor here, by the way)

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Old 06-27-2014, 07:04 AM   #17
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PS- Most people who have made it would tell you to pay down your lowest debt first, regardless of interest rate. It's the idea of "seeing" things get paid off that gives people the ambition and will to get them attacking debt aggressively (budgeting REALLY comes in handy here). You pay on something that take some years to pay off, there is not a tangable success…you still have the payments. You knock out a $2000 credit card in a couple months, add that payment to your next biggest debt, you then pay that one off quicker, and roll both payments into the third biggest debt and so on. Sounds counterproductive, but have you ever heard of "snowballing" your debt? It works. I'm living proof of it. We paid our civic off 3 years early using this idea after paying off 5 credit cards!

I always suggest to my clients to "snowball" starting with their lowest debt and working to their highest. Learned this from Dave Ramsey a couple years ago and it has had amazing success. The calls are always fun when I have a client call me up telling me they just knocked out their third or fourth credit card.

(financial advisor here, by the way)

That's a good point and something I hadn't really thought about.

The mental aspect is often the most important part. Make a few changes, get the ball rolling, and by the time it's all said and done, like a freight train roaring down the track.

I did the highest interest rate first, which I only had two and it worked out that the smallest debt had the highest rate. However, I went so far as to make a calendar as to when I should be debt free. Check it off every day and use it as a reminder to stay the course. When it was blank, the task looked daunting, as it started getting filled up, motivation increased and I worked even harder to pinch every penny and add to it, try to beat the deadline I had previously set. Made mistakes along the way, recently realized I had made a 10k mistake, but it wasn't through lack of effort, just because as I said before, didn't know better. I count it as a lesson and it won't happen again.

(not a financial planner, just a regular guy who doesn't want to be beholden to anything)
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Old 06-27-2014, 08:05 AM   #18
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Ok quoting Dave Ramsey is never a good idea. Coming from the financial advisor world (not sure if you work just in investments or are CFP certified) there's a lot mroe that goes into planning than just trying to pay off debt. At 2.8%, there's plenty of opportunity to earn more than that off investing the additional money. I agree with paying off high interest debt (5.2% or higher in today's market). There's no reason to pay off low interest debt when there's more money to be made out there.

One of the hardest things I have trouble helping clients understand when planning is opportunity of maximizing your savings. It is usually they want to have everything paid off and stick it in a mmkt (which is earning less than the inflation rate in today's mkt) or they want to take on as much debt as they can and let their savings ride in the stock market. Taking either extreme is not a wise decision and really sitting ddown and working out a plan will help them become more financially responsible.

In terms of the 15 vs. 30 yr mortgage, if they paid both of them off in 15 years, the additional interest would be 378,734.89, which would equal a difference of 19089.65 in FV, which in today's dollar at an avg. inflationary indexed rate of 4% (being conservative) is $10,599.81 in today's dollars. So being able to have the flexability of paying $624.23 less each month if needed for future lifestyle changes can be an important option for many people.

Average home price also varies by markets. I live in the midwest. I didn't change the numbers because both of you live in CA. I imagine the disparity would be larger around you, but even some of the higher nw clients I work with around this area, most of the ones purchasing homes more than 300k are doing it in a 5/1 ARM, with having the cash invested in cashlike instruments and pay off the loans when the adjusted rate outpaces the interest they are earning.

Median income here in the Midwest is much lower than CA.

Ultimately, you have to consider multiple things when it comes to your choices. You need to look at your retirement plan and taxes. You should also be looking at estate planning and insurance. You should determine if an insurance policy would be needed in case something would happen to you (LT disability vs. short term, also term vs. whole life, in case you pass).

Sauve, pm me. I'd like to see what type of planning you do. I'm always willing to pass on different perspectives and am always willing to listen to other planners and how they help their clients. It's neat to be able to pick up a few other options for the people I work with on a daily basis.
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:45 AM   #19
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Save money for the downpayment, leave the car payments as-is.

Car payment is only 3-5 years, house is 25-30 years. The money you'll save in interest over that 30 years by having a larger downpayment will go a long way.

Face it, we're car guys, you're almost always going to have a car loan. Just make sure you factor it into your budget.
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:50 AM   #20
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The interest in everybody's account is low especially the state the economy is in so don't sweat it! Save up for that larger down payment to throw down. If your car happens to get paid off by the time you save it up too then good. It can be seen as an asset instead of equity.
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Old 06-27-2014, 12:21 PM   #21
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I just go straight to who got it and buy it in cash.

ohhh-ho now you're talkin my language, now you're talkin my language.
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Old 06-27-2014, 12:29 PM   #22
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suave, your situation may not have been bad tbh. You paid off your cc first (which are almost always higher APR) and then paid off your car. It does not make financial sense to pay off a debt based of amt owed, but based off of interest accrued.
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Old 06-27-2014, 12:43 PM   #23
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Ok quoting Dave Ramsey is never a good idea. Coming from the financial advisor world (not sure if you work just in investments or are CFP certified) there's a lot mroe that goes into planning than just trying to pay off debt. At 2.8%, there's plenty of opportunity to earn more than that off investing the additional money. I agree with paying off high interest debt (5.2% or higher in today's market). There's no reason to pay off low interest debt when there's more money to be made out there.
Funny thing is that on a lot of things, I don't agree with Dave Ramsey. I think he is a great cookie cutter option for those who don't want to research for themselves and HE WORKS! (I teach his class at church and keep my mouth shut on the stuff I don't agree with. It's the integrity idea and I want to keep things as simple as possible) At the same time, he's worth 55 million. How much are you worth? I very much stick with best practices as I am not worth 55 million. None of these ideas are my own. I basically spit back out what I read and study from people who have succeeded. No need to reinvent the wheel again.

Paying of debt is the first step, and from what I've seen, it is a necessary first step. I'm not saying you don't start with your investments at the same time, but you keep them minimal. A credit card (I would say it's fair to assume, this is probably most peoples major debt) from a credit union is at around 9% here in San Diego. You're breaking even (or are paying more) right there percentage-wise with your investments. Go to a bank like Bank of America, I think it was 21% before I paid it off? It's INSANE! And People HAVE to have it now, so it's getting out of control.

I do know that this lowest to highest debt thing works. I've seen it work in my life and I've seen it work in my clients. Luke said it perfectly, and you can read it/ hear it in pretty much any motivational speaker….motivation and midset are the key. You look straight at the numbers and it looks wrong. It's like giving to charity. For some reason, the amount of wealth you have is directly corilated to how much you give. Sounds off, but it's been shown again, and again (I'm assuming it has something to do with budgeting as you are forced to have a budget when you give. I found this out as well. Giving 10% to a church HURTS sometimes, but I have not missed a payment or bill since I started doing this) Use it with your clients and they will pay off their debt earlier and probably save more money due to momentum, and the actual tangable evidence of things getting paid off. Try it with just one to start.

It's like working out. How often do people stick with it past a week or two? Why? There is very little to ANY change in body composition. (Oddly enough my wife is a Health and Wellness coach, so we are very much a power couple). People want to see changes now, so when they don't, they give up. It's our society now and it's pretty sad. They want instant gratification.

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One of the hardest things I have trouble helping clients understand when planning is opportunity of maximizing your savings. It is usually they want to have everything paid off and stick it in a mmkt (which is earning less than the inflation rate in today's mkt) or they want to take on as much debt as they can and let their savings ride in the stock market. Taking either extreme is not a wise decision and really sitting ddown and working out a plan will help them become more financially responsible.
I agree here for the most part. I usually stop at cars and motgage. CC's are my biggest push to pay off ASAP and throw them away. While cars and mortgages are debt, they're not kicking your butt like CC's are. Most car loans are under 3% and housing is around 4% (another reason why I tell them to stick with a 15 year mortgage, by the time they get through their debt which usually takes 3-5 years, there house is a 3rd of the way paid off)

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In terms of the 15 vs. 30 yr mortgage, if they paid both of them off in 15 years, the additional interest would be 378,734.89, which would equal a difference of 19089.65 in FV, which in today's dollar at an avg. inflationary indexed rate of 4% (being conservative) is $10,599.81 in today's dollars. So being able to have the flexability of paying $624.23 less each month if needed for future lifestyle changes can be an important option for many people.
Statistics say that unless you have a "forced" discipline (15 year mortgage), you probably won't pay it off early. We as americans tend to live within (or any many cases above) our means rather than below it. As the average household earns more money, they spend more money. "That which I have, I spend" kind of idea.

Reason why "18 months no interest" is so popular for loan companies or CC's. 88% of the time they roll into payments. That is a pretty good bet that the loan company is going to come out on top.


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Average home price also varies by markets. I live in the midwest. I didn't change the numbers because both of you live in CA. I imagine the disparity would be larger around you, but even some of the higher nw clients I work with around this area, most of the ones purchasing homes more than 300k are doing it in a 5/1 ARM, with having the cash invested in cashlike instruments and pay off the loans when the adjusted rate outpaces the interest they are earning.

Median income here in the Midwest is much lower than CA.

Ultimately, you have to consider multiple things when it comes to your choices. You need to look at your retirement plan and taxes. You should also be looking at estate planning and insurance. You should determine if an insurance policy would be needed in case something would happen to you (LT disability vs. short term, also term vs. whole life, in case you pass).
Of course you do, but for sleep sake last night and to keep things as easy to understand for others as possible, I kept it very simple.

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Sauve, pm me. I'd like to see what type of planning you do. I'm always willing to pass on different perspectives and am always willing to listen to other planners and how they help their clients. It's neat to be able to pick up a few other options for the people I work with on a daily basis.
I basically do retirement planning (so not nearly as fancy as you ). "I help people build wealth and reduce taxes through tax favored investments" is what I usually tell people. (Life insurance, annuities and investments.) I'm nothing crazy, but I read a lot and study a lot because I enjoy it. I've always been facinated by being comfortable with finances as I grew up in a very poor home and quickly found myself almost $100k in debt shorty after college.
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Old 06-27-2014, 01:07 PM   #24
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yea man good stuff. You have a great foundation, and I would suggest if you really like what you are doing, then go study for the CFP. I started off in only investments and got hooked. I think the difference from what it sounds like with the people you help is that most of them are not disciplined enough to stick to a financial plan.

I refuse to work with clients that carry these qualities as it's a waste of my time and theirs to develop a plan. CCs are always first to pay off, start with the highest interest rate and move down the line. Next you should be looking at other high interest rate debt (rates will fluctate based of current mkt trends) and then once all the high interest debt is paid off, get an emergency savings in place (3-6 months).

This is when you would want to consider what's going to make the most sense from here. Out in cali, you guys have higher incomes, which would tell me you are dealing with clients in high tax brackets. Have them maximize their retirement savings (IRAs, 401(k), PSP, ESOP plan etc.) to minimize their taxable income, There's other ways also, which are really out of the realm of this conversation, but your main goal shouldn't be paying down low interest debt, but maximizing their nest egg.

Client I spoke to 3 weeks ago makes 580k per year with himself and his wife. Both are over 50, and just by maximizing their 401(k) contrubutions, they cut out over 20k in taxes.

Let me know if you're interested in learning more about the broad spectrum of financial planning. Where you are is where I started out, and it sounds like you are on the right track.

In regards to your 55 million comment, Jim Cramer is worth more than $100 million and you don't see any financial planners suggesting to follow him for stock picks. One of the funny things about his portfolio is that he does not own any individual stocks.
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Old 06-27-2014, 01:31 PM   #25
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yea man good stuff. You have a great foundation, and I would suggest if you really like what you are doing, then go study for the CFP. I started off in only investments and got hooked. I think the difference from what it sounds like with the people you help is that most of them are not disciplined enough to stick to a financial plan.

I refuse to work with clients that carry these qualities as it's a waste of my time and theirs to develop a plan. CCs are always first to pay off, start with the highest interest rate and move down the line. Next you should be looking at other high interest rate debt (rates will fluctate based of current mkt trends) and then once all the high interest debt is paid off, get an emergency savings in place (3-6 months).

This is when you would want to consider what's going to make the most sense from here. Out in cali, you guys have higher incomes, which would tell me you are dealing with clients in high tax brackets. Have them maximize their retirement savings (IRAs, 401(k), PSP, ESOP plan etc.) to minimize their taxable income, There's other ways also, which are really out of the realm of this conversation, but your main goal shouldn't be paying down low interest debt, but maximizing their nest egg.

Client I spoke to 3 weeks ago makes 580k per year with himself and his wife. Both are over 50, and just by maximizing their 401(k) contrubutions, they cut out over 20k in taxes.

Let me know if you're interested in learning more about the broad spectrum of financial planning. Where you are is where I started out, and it sounds like you are on the right track.

In regards to your 55 million comment, Jim Cramer is worth more than $100 million and you don't see any financial planners suggesting to follow him for stock picks. One of the funny things about his portfolio is that he does not own any individual stocks.
Might just do that regarding the Cert.

My passion is for people who struggle, newly married, or young people getting out of college. I spent 13 years waiting tables and that creates a very patient person

I see what I can do about getting ahold of Jim Cramer material and continue with my reading. Always willing to learn more
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:26 PM   #26
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OP, lots of good advice here. @suaveflooder & @bakerr6 clearly know what they're talking about. I would say always always always pay down the highest interest rate 1st, you will save more money that way, then take what you were putting towards that payment and put it toward the next highest, soon you'll be making way over the minimum payments and knocking out debt quickly.

I think the most important thing is to live well within your means, don't buy more house than you need/can afford. Do a 15 year mortgage if you can and don't spend all your money on BRZ parts!
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:36 PM   #27
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OP, lots of good advice here. @suaveflooder & @bakerr6 clearly know what they're talking about. I would say always always always pay down the highest interest rate 1st, you will save more money that way, then take what you were putting towards that payment and put it toward the next highest, soon you'll be making way over the minimum payments and knocking out debt quickly.

I think the most important thing is to live well within your means, don't buy more house than you need/can afford. Do a 15 year mortgage if you can and don't spend all your money on BRZ parts!
LOL! BINGO!
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Old 06-27-2014, 03:26 PM   #28
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100% agree. The one thing I've noticed time in and time out is that people tend to buy more than what they need. Buy a house that will fit your purpose and do not overspend. Who cares about status, someone has to clean and pay for the upkeep on that mansion. Less money on too much house, more money for things more important, such as family and retirement.

Suave, I'm right there with you. The unfortunate part of the matter is that I've worked with a lot of folks that are younger and they tend to overspend, which leaves little room to develop a disciplined plan. I still work with them from time to time, however it's always under the ccircumstances that if they do not follow the plan that we agreed on, then we cannot continue further with the financial relationship in the future.

Best luck to you. I would suggest subscribing to the financial planning magazine and reading the WSJ every day instead of reading Cramer's pieces. he is an extremely intelligent man, but focuses more on developing strategies for maximizing stock picks vs. overall financial planning. Ramsey actually has some good readings, but focuses more on behavioral finance vs. analytical tendencies.

If you are working with clients whom would benefit more from behavioral finance, then some of the points you have brought forth will help aid the conversation.
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