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BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics All discussions about the first-gen Subaru BRZ coupe


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Old 12-03-2013, 10:53 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by a2cpc View Post
So you have seen the contract? Also, why is the man who was in charge at Toyota on video saying the opposite?
Because Tada is butt-hurt that Subaru is getting all the glory for the BRZ. The general perception is that the FT86 is a Subaru with a face saving amount of Toyota stuff mixed in. Subaru could have easily just run the FXT turbo engine with no Toyota stuff at all. Same thing for the 6 speed.

Subaru's story and most other stories are consistent- its Tada who keeps trying to push a new narrative (focused on him unsurprisingly). But the reality was that Subaru's idea's and perceptions were correct- the later Scion models moved away from the Scion design model to closer mimic the BRZ's features/options (and higher price).

tl/dr ignore anything Tada says about the FT86 at this point
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:15 PM   #72
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If Subaru have the idea that the BRZ is just a bridge to the new WRX , then they need to make a better WRX/STI.
Orders for the new WRX are few and far between here down under in Aus.
The BRZ is still selling out fast.
I think while there might be some Subaru fans around who see some kind of kindred spirit between the BRZ and the Impreza, there are likely more of us who see them as diametrically opposed, the Impreza being a massive tank of a car that really doesn't go anywhere near the sports car idea other than the fact that it has lots of horsepower. You could go the same way and suggest that the Corvette is similar to the Impala, when I think most Corvette owners would probably kick your ass for suggesting it.

That said, I can't immediately discount the OP with the premise, despite the success of Clint@Heuburger, I can count on one hand the number of 86's I've seen on the roads in Silicon Valley, and it's far less than there were Celica's two years after it's release. It's a reason why Toyota doesn't make sports cars, they just can't compare to the demand of your average econobox that suits a much larger role and a much larger group of people. And when a car company stops making sports cars, they stop innovating, which is probably why Toyota got into racing, so their R&D people would have something to put into the next generation of econoboxes. That does not however feed very well into making sports cars more generally popular.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:43 PM   #73
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I think while there might be some Subaru fans around who see some kind of kindred spirit between the BRZ and the Impreza, there are likely more of us who see them as diametrically opposed, the Impreza being a massive tank of a car that really doesn't go anywhere near the sports car idea other than the fact that it has lots of horsepower. You could go the same way and suggest that the Corvette is similar to the Impala, when I think most Corvette owners would probably kick your ass for suggesting it.
While I agree that the WRX is very different from the BRZ, to call it a "massive tank of a car" is being a bit hyperbolic, in my opinion. It's a fairly small car, for a 4-door, with a similar curb weight to an A3 or 128i. In fact, it's also a similar curb weight to the corvette, which you seem to think is a fairly light car based on your statements above. For an AWD turbo sedan, its weight is very reasonable. No, it doesn't handle like a BRZ, but it's not exactly a Challenger either. Its suspension tuning could absolutely be improved, without a doubt, and that would help its handling quite a bit (I'm still hoping this will be the case for the 2015 model), but at the end of the day, the two cars are aimed at different markets.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:49 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by chrisl View Post
While I agree that the WRX is very different from the BRZ, to call it a "massive tank of a car" is being a bit hyperbolic, in my opinion. It's a fairly small car, for a 4-door, with a similar curb weight to an A3 or 128i. In fact, it's also a similar curb weight to the corvette, which you seem to think is a fairly light car based on your statements above. For an AWD turbo sedan, its weight is very reasonable. No, it doesn't handle like a BRZ, but it's not exactly a Challenger either. Its suspension tuning could absolutely be improved, without a doubt, and that would help its handling quite a bit (I'm still hoping this will be the case for the 2015 model), but at the end of the day, the two cars are aimed at different markets.
Having driven turbo'd imprezas for the past four and a half years, the driving experience of driving one compared to driving a BRZ... the tank analogy is apt. Compared to some other cars, it isn't apt but WRX/STI vs. BRZ, it is.

The BRZ/FR-S is like a lithe, nimble dancer and the WRX/STI is a thundering, corner carving juggernaut. Both are maneuverable and fast (no pondering behemoth the Impreza), but the Impreza is much akin to a tank compared to a BRZ.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:51 PM   #75
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Not according to Tada. He says they already have several prototype variants.
You don't remember the development cycle on these cars? It was a very long period of time.

2015 is most likely the next refresh. It won't be a replacement. It may have a different engine, but it won't be drastically changed (ie same chassis, etc).

They dumped way too much money in to replace it after 2 model years of sales.

Also, "official" statements from Tada and others turned out to be so badly incorrect before that I wouldn't bother putting much weight into anything until it's released.
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Old 12-03-2013, 03:22 PM   #76
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They dumped way too much money in to replace it after 2 model years of sales.
What they need is to make a hatchback like @WingsofWar and @ichitaka05 have rendered. Ohhhhh baby.
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Old 12-03-2013, 03:51 PM   #77
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Cocoa Beach Bum posted this article from Australia...

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/t...809-2rleu.html


"Tada confirmed to Drive he is already developing the concept for a successor, and hinted that it could be a radically different car, potentially dropping the boxer engine altogether - which raises questions about Subaru's involvement and whether there will be follow-up to the sister BRZ."

Uh oh... Could the BRZ be another footnote in Subaru's history, like the Brat, XT, SVX and Baja?

A 2.5 NA engine producing 250hp could be interesting though.
What happens is that Toyota does not agree with Subaru in term of how expensive their PowerTrain is costing to produce.

Expensive Power train = because Subaru had this Power train in mind for Turbo set up. Do you see Subaru vehicles ? they are Turbo-ed.....I don't know much about Subaru, but wherever I look....they are Turbo-ed.

Toyota originally wanted to stick with NA engine for the Simplicity of maintenance, parts, labors.....whatever. It is not that they don't have the Turbo Technologies. But they just want Simplicity. Toyota vehicles are very simple from the way they engineer Electrical, to everything else. Just ask any mechanics, or whoever knows car.

By that stand point. Toyota wanted the most Simple car that was a Resurrection of the 86, just Cheap, and fun.

While Toyota did not develop any new engine for that 86 revision project, they had a proposal from Subaru for the FA20 in trade of the DI. It is here.

So their problem is that now. Subaru is pissed because Toyota was so Arrogant that they do not want a Turbo for the platform, because of that, Subaru can not Turbo their own. Toyota is pissed because they wanted a simpler and cheaper car....but Subaru is setting them up Turbo ready.....results in the more Cost to produce = more Expensive vehicles. If you paid attention, the 86 now can tolerate After market Boosts fairly well with Stock internal...and drive train...it can easily be 300 BHP without changing too much of the supporting mods

Conclusion, I wouldn't say it is the end for the BRZ. After the contract is served, the car is owned by Subaru, and the engine is owned by Toyota. Subaru can choose to keep the car, or kill it. Toyota can choose to keep the engine, or kill it. Tada San is developing his own....so what may happen could be

1/ FR-S will no longer have Boxer engine. It could remains the same with cheaper engine to keep it cheap, and simplistic, if Toyota is sticking to the original plan. By this, you will have to swap, change A lo of things to Mod it well.

2/ BR-Z will still be produced, but with the original plan from Subaru. We will see Turbo BR-Z. Heck, Subaru already have Hybrid Turbo patent filed back in 2007. They may use it in this case. Subaru saw the DI from Toyota as a good deal = probably a good combination for their Hybrid Turbo. BR-Z will be more expensive by going this route, but they will be Polished, and probably Flag-ship Coupe for Subaru Brand. I am guessing it may be around 40k....but it will be very: Balanced, Agile, Powerful, Tail happy.

Conclusion, the last good FR-S / BRZ will be the one that is Boxer and Mods friendly would be the 2.5 FR-S. They may be limited production (probably last year of the current Gen) Subaru will agree to this, because of the transition of the contract.

After that, the second gen, BR-Z and FR-S will be too different to even realize....they will suddenly become Female...and Male...instead of Uni-Sex as of now.

With all that analysis. The best to buy in this current gen will be the 2.5, and it will get into the History as the Supra before. Why ? Because of Mods friendly, Stroked bigger engine. If you think about it, the second gen BR-Z with the new set up will be 2.0 turboed...maybe doing 300/300. The 2.5 with the same turbo mildly modded will probably be close to 400/400.

That is in a perfect world for assumption. They may not do anything at all as how Pissed they are toward each other, and we still stuck with the same Gen.

End of rant. Thanks for reading

Last edited by Whitigir; 12-03-2013 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 12-04-2013, 11:15 AM   #78
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^^^and a good read at that!
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Old 12-05-2013, 05:23 AM   #79
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I am looking forward to what really will happen. I'm not opposed to upgrading to the better model if they finally make one.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:57 AM   #80
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2015 is most likely the next refresh. It won't be a replacement. It may have a different engine, but it won't be drastically changed (ie same chassis, etc).


Yea a 30h-50hp bump won't be a drastic change.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:59 AM   #81
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Yea a 30h-50hp bump won't be a drastic change.
Lol!!i don't know about you, but I will jump immediately to a 2.5l 250hp 86, no question asked.

So are many others. I just hope they do make it
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:47 AM   #82
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Lol!!i don't know about you, but I will jump immediately to a 2.5l 250hp 86, no question asked.
I would definitely ask questions, like what's the weight difference and what's the weight distribution. A bigger motor is not the end-all be-all of automotive solutions. If that were true, then Lotus wouldn't exist, and their cars wouldn't routinely kill us on road courses.

You just have to ask, what's your priority?
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:58 AM   #83
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I would definitely ask questions, like what's the weight difference and what's the weight distribution. A bigger motor is not the end-all be-all of automotive solutions. If that were true, then Lotus wouldn't exist, and their cars wouldn't routinely kill us on road courses.

You just have to ask, what's your priority?


Not sure the 2.5 is that much heavier. The only Lotus I have encountered on a Road Course, Gingerman, I left behind in a WRX. He would catch up some in the turns, but I would pull away in the straights. He might of sucked as a driver, I don't know, I know I am not all that good.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:58 AM   #84
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I would definitely ask questions, like what's the weight difference and what's the weight distribution. A bigger motor is not the end-all be-all of automotive solutions. If that were true, then Lotus wouldn't exist, and their cars wouldn't routinely kill us on road courses.

You just have to ask, what's your priority?
Adequate performance for the car deserves it. 2.5L is not an ends all be all like you said, but to Bore it out 0.125 L on each Cylinders ain't gonna change everything, especially the weight and balance.

That 2.5 is the Favorite from Tada San, your 86 Excutive.

You better ask him why it is his favorite.

Why do I want 50HP more ? To you it may not be anything at all, but to me. That is the Specs of a Porsche and at 1/3 the price.

I am not the only one who is asking for power, but many other. Example of Paul Walker, he was joking but some what serious, the car look like it deserve 500 HP.

Something at that caliber can not be done without messing everything up, from the view point of the Producer, but 2.5L Is definitely possitive

Because of all that, I would jump on a 2.5L with 250 HP, and 50 more Torque.
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