Random Thoughts - Part Deux [NO POLITICS]

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by spike021

Honestly in some ways these classes are a scam. I'm in a virtual one on saturdays too and most of the training stuff except some tips and tricks are obvious or the easiest ones you find online when learning this stuff.

I've taken several dogs through formal obedience courses, and really didn't consider them a scam. What they are is a structured reinforcement to make sure I do what I already know now how to do, but have a tendency to let slip if I don't have a "check in" once a week. The training is really for the owners more than the pets. The pets get socialization out of it though, which is a good thing.

[bcj]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Wow... That's beautiful. Is this annual? Like a club event?

From '96 to '06 or so we had monthly flys in various places and a web site.
Then people moved, lost interest or forgot.
We got re-connected via zoom last year and planning a get-together.

The big annual kite event is at Long Beach WA third full week of August every year except last.

We're doing a smaller thing for a couple days the week before at OC Aug. 12-15.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by spike021

Haru and I went to our first in person group puppy class today. He did pretty well. There were about eight puppies of various breeds, though the Shikoku (bigger brother breed of the Shiba) and two corgis stood out.

There were two other dogs that were so wild they had to be taken out to calm down and then slowly reintroduced back into the group lol.

Honestly in some ways these classes are a scam. I'm in a virtual one on saturdays too and most of the training stuff except some tips and tricks are obvious or the easiest ones you find online when learning this stuff.

The tips are definitely gonna be a bit useful but clearly the most value were getting out of this is getting to slowly socialize with approved puppies that have the right shots.

And that is the value in having real life exposure and training.
Pretty hard to get dogs used to being around other people and dogs if it is all done virtually.

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I've taken several dogs through formal obedience courses, and really didn't consider them a scam. What they are is a structured reinforcement to make sure I do what I already know now how to do, but have a tendency to let slip if I don't have a "check in" once a week. The training is really for the owners more than the pets. The pets get socialization out of it though, which is a good thing.

Timely that this discussion branch has appeared. My wife and I have been lifelong dog people. My first dog, who became our dog when we were married 39 years ago, was a 40 pound half coyote mix who lived to be 17.5 years old. Great dog, VERY smart, equally independent, loved people, not particularly fond of other dogs, but tolerated them unless they were aggressive, then all bets were off. Since then, we've had three German Shepherds, a 60-pound retriever mix, and a chihuahua we sadly had to say goodbye two a bit over two weeks ago. When he died, it was the first time in our adult lives we have not had a dog in the house (or at least a son or two) in all of our time together, and it was awful... so we set out immediately to find one to adopt.

A breed we were not familiar with, but sounded ideal, fell in our lap.. a 7-month old Red Australian Kelpie Dog. Descriptions of the breed as highly intelligent, energetic, unflappable, and friendly are spot on. He loves everyone, canine and human alike, and does great in public... we've already had him in several dog-friendly pubs, taken him shopping in pet-friendly stores, etc., and he's fine.

I LIKE to think that I know what I'm doing when training dogs, just through trial and error with six very different dogs in the past, but this one is presenting a challenge I haven't experienced before, and it's a little unnerving. Knowing my personal stubborn and semi-antisocial nature, it goes against my grain to attend any kind of formal "puppy classes," but perhaps it's time for even this old dog to learn a new trick or two.

Here's the issue... after a week and a half of working with him, he heels quite well and walks on the leash without straining, knows and almost always obeys the usual sit, down, stay, paw, stand, wait, and leave-it commands, and has learned a couple amusing tricks on almost no time at all. All good.

HOWEVER...

Every once in a while in the backyard, while on a lead (which is still all of the time, either a 6 foot walking lead or 30 foot training lead), he goes absolutely berserk. Not aggressive, just running in circles, jumping uncontrollably, biting his lead... describing the intensity of these fits is impossible. Seriously... it's like he's posessed. I can NOT calm him down... I've tried ignoring it, distracting him, calmly (as calmly as possible, anyway) restraining him, sharp loud noises, soft soothing talking... nothing really works well.

Now, the first thing I'd guess if someone presented me with this is that the dog simply needs more exercise or stimulation. Trust me... we do at least five miles of walking a day, some heeling/some freer time, then extensive ball/frisbee play (he LOVES herding a huge Pilates ball around the yard), usually twice a day minimum, a few short training/fun trick sessions inside throughout the day.. my wife and I are retired and we are with this dog 24/7, while still giving him time to chill under the table/nap in his bed when he wants to. I find it hard to believe his "zoomies" (I hate that phrase... too cute and new-agey... I hate cute and new-agey.. see my earlier curmudgeon-y comment re/ puppy classes/certificates/graduations) are caused by boredome or pent-up energy. Who knows. They ARE tapering off, getting less frequent, less insane, and easier to get him out of, so maybe just time.

Two other things I'd like him to improve on faster..

1. Looking up at me/"checking in" while we are on walks. He does great, but he is VERY focused on everything else. I use the command "check-in" when I want him to look up, and "touch" when I want him to put his nose on my hand. Still not getting the consistency needed with either.

2. He strains on the leash in the presence of other dogs or nearby people. NOT aggressive.. he's just so friendly he wants to go play with EVERYONE/EVERYTHING. I can get him to sit and stay, but we'd literally need to sit and stay there until the other being is out of sight, or forever if we're trying to walk past a dog in a fenced-in yard. He does NOT give up.

Any tips? He is not very treat-oriented; he can take them or leave them.. we've tried various high quality treats including commercial products and little pieces of chicken. He responds well to a praising "YEss!" and accompanying chest rub. In the house he'll do anything for a toy.

Would welcome any and all advice from experienced trainers/dog folks.. including "Suck it up and go to a few classes."

The chihuahua went everywhere with us, and unlike many, he was really friendly with everyone so he was no hassle at all. The Shepherds were so big that we didn't take them many places other than very long walks/hikes/x-country skiing in back country. The Kelpie is a PERFECT size and temperament for taking places... about 40 pounds, scared of nothing, and friendly. I'd like to solve #2 above, and also be able to get him to the point where I could have him sit/stay outside a store for a couple minutes and know he'd be there when I came back out.

It is SO nice to have a dog back in the house. For being here for not quite two weeks (it'll be two weeks at about 5pm), he's doing GREAT. I've gotta keep telling myself that...

[Atmo]

Originally Posted by spike021

Haru and I went to our first in person group puppy class today. He did pretty well. There were about eight puppies of various breeds, though the Shikoku (bigger brother breed of the Shiba) and two corgis stood out.

There were two other dogs that were so wild they had to be taken out to calm down and then slowly reintroduced back into the group lol.

Honestly in some ways these classes are a scam. I'm in a virtual one on saturdays too and most of the training stuff except some tips and tricks are obvious or the easiest ones you find online when learning this stuff.

The tips are definitely gonna be a bit useful but clearly the most value were getting out of this is getting to slowly socialize with approved puppies that have the right shots.

I suggest waiting until your puppy is at least 4 months old, 6 months even better, before starting group anything whether play time or obedience training. Home one-on-one meetups are fine if the other dog is about the same size and temperament.

Group activities can potentially affect a dog's temperament for life if they encounter aggressive or bigger stronger dogs bowling them over. It could make your puppy aggressive or skittish around other dogs and risk injury to developing bones and teeth.

Insist that all dogs be vaccinated for Bordetella (kennel cough) sometimes brought home by other dogs adopted from shelters or puppy mills. It's a devastating disease that can cause aspirational pneumonia, scaring the lungs.

I agree with what @Dadhawk said, group training by a competent leader is more for the owners than the dogs. Just keep home sessions short, 10-15 minutes tops, with lots of praise during and after each session, and repeat every few hours understanding that it can take a thousand reps before the dog responds consistently. And try not to use the dog's name in a correction like "NO, FIDO" or they'll associate their name with discipline instead of wanting to return to you for praise. Spitz breeds like yours are very sensitive even if they don't show it outwardly and may start ignoring you if discipline is too harsh.

Keep it fun and they'll eventually look forward to pleasing you.

[Ultramaroon]

Was reading @Atmo's last paragraph and laughed when I heard my daughter scold her dog using his name.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by cjd

So many people have no clue before they get a pet. Accept the reinforcement you did your research well ahead of time.

I think it just goes hand-in-hand with what we see on the forums here. Many people go into buying a twin without knowing what the power is like, what the tuning is like, etc. They can't do any research themselves, so they ask the most basic of questions and then @Tcoat, @humfrz, or @Ultramaroon need to spend time re-answering.

Yeah that's why I said there were some good tips. Most of it is stuff I know, but the tips and tricks will be helpful to focus on certain training I'm doing.

i.e. both the virtual and in-person class were big on "you should hand feed your puppy as often as possible because 1) they need to eat, and 2) you need to be able to train and reward them often at this age, so using kibble makes a lot of sense, and 3) because they're nippy and need to learn how to gently accept food without biting or rushing"

Well, I've been doing a mix of hand-feeding and bowl-feeding. Most of the time Haru will just lick my hands to get the food off at this point. I've also taught him the "wait" command (for the most part) and at this point he'll wait like 70% or so of the time if I ask, until I say "OK!" and then he gently but quickly eats the kibble or treat in my hand.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I've taken several dogs through formal obedience courses, and really didn't consider them a scam. What they are is a structured reinforcement to make sure I do what I already know now how to do, but have a tendency to let slip if I don't have a "check in" once a week. The training is really for the owners more than the pets. The pets get socialization out of it though, which is a good thing.

Yeah it'll be great for personal accountability, especially since this is my first time having this experience, and the group socialization. For shibas especially it's incredibly important that they meet other dogs early.

When I said scam, I meant more like the real basics. There is super rudimentary stuff they're spending half the class on that as long as you care about training your dog, you'd have learned on your own and already been practicing, like I said above. And since they recommend both the virtual and in-person one, it means I'm double-paying for some of it. That's the "scam" of it. But I'm sure some people take theirs to class without even knowing or trying any of it at home first.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And that is the value in having real life exposure and training.
Pretty hard to get dogs used to being around other people and dogs if it is all done virtually.

Yeah honestly if I knew 2 weeks ago what I know now I'd have only paid for the in-person one, specifically for the accountability but also for the group interaction. Last night they double-covered some of what's already been gone over in the virtual one, and the rest of the virtual one in 2 sessions I've already learned by reading books/internet articles about positive reinforcement training and whatnot.

Originally Posted by Atmo

I suggest waiting until your puppy is at least 4 months old, 6 months even better, before starting group anything whether play time or obedience training. Home one-on-one meetups are fine if the other dog is about the same size and temperament.

Group activities can potentially affect a dog's temperament for life if they encounter aggressive or bigger stronger dogs bowling them over. It could make your puppy aggressive or skittish around other dogs and risk injury to developing bones and teeth.

Insist that all dogs be vaccinated for Bordetella (kennel cough) sometimes brought home by other dogs adopted from shelters or puppy mills. It's a devastating disease that can cause aspirational pneumonia, scaring the lungs.

I agree with what @Dadhawk said, group training by a competent leader is more for the owners than the dogs. Just keep home sessions short, 10-15 minutes tops, with lots of praise during and after each session, and repeat every few hours understanding that it can take a thousand reps before the dog responds consistently. And try not to use the dog's name in a correction like "NO, FIDO" or they'll associate their name with discipline instead of wanting to return to you for praise. Spitz breeds like yours are very sensitive even if they don't show it outwardly and may start ignoring you if discipline is too harsh.

Keep it fun and they'll eventually look forward to pleasing you.

The training class required proof of vaccinations and stuff, plus the enclosure was kept really well-sanitized. There was also a good protocol to follow in case one of the puppies pottied on the floor (basically raise your hand and say it happened, everybody does a front collar hold with treat/kibble, and wait for someone to re-sanitize the spot).

As far as ages to interact with dogs, I think it's really mixed. There are a lot of established Shiba resources that say the earlier the better in socialization. A lady yesterday who had a Shikoku was telling me she had a Shiba before and her mistake was not socializing him at classes like she's doing with the Shikoku, so her Shiba later in life had more issues with playing with other dogs.

I was perfectly willing to wait longer but as long as the class and trainer seem well-prepared (which they do, so far), I _think_ it's worth doing.

I've also carried him around a lot in my apartment complex and sometimes we come across other neighbors' dogs, from a distance. This way he can safely without risk learn to see other dogs, hear them if they bark or whatever, etc. He mostly does fine. There was one time when one scared him a bit but usually he tries to sniff in their direction and stuff.

I'd say I pretty much never use his name in discipline except very rarely when he's doing FRAPS at night and starts really going bitey haywire but even then I just try to redirect and give him a toy or put him in a spot that's safe for it. We've been practicing "Haru, come!" and right now he does it probably 40-50% of the time, even if I don't have a treat to tempt him with.

Lots of 10 or so minute training sessions. I try to do one every "awake" session between naps with good treats and stuff.

But yeah it's all a challenge either way! So much new information and completely new experiences for both of us. I worry a lot, lol.

[Atmo]

Heh, I worry about them too! They're our kids.

I agree that socialization is super important but meant to differentiate between socialization and group training. Both are important for their own reasons and I agree, start socializing with new people, places, cars, and other dogs the day after you get them home.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by spike021

I think it just goes hand-in-hand with what we see on the forums here. Many people go into buying a twin without knowing what the power is like, what the tuning is like, etc. They can't do any research themselves, so they ask the most basic of questions and then @Tcoat, @humfrz, or @Ultramaroon need to spend time re-answering.

Yeah that's why I said there were some good tips. Most of it is stuff I know, but the tips and tricks will be helpful to focus on certain training I'm doing.

i.e. both the virtual and in-person class were big on "you should hand feed your puppy as often as possible because 1) they need to eat, and 2) you need to be able to train and reward them often at this age, so using kibble makes a lot of sense, and 3) because they're nippy and need to learn how to gently accept food without biting or rushing"

Well, I've been doing a mix of hand-feeding and bowl-feeding. Most of the time Haru will just lick my hands to get the food off at this point. I've also taught him the "wait" command (for the most part) and at this point he'll wait like 70% or so of the time if I ask, until I say "OK!" and then he gently but quickly eats the kibble or treat in my hand.



Yeah it'll be great for personal accountability, especially since this is my first time having this experience, and the group socialization. For shibas especially it's incredibly important that they meet other dogs early.

When I said scam, I meant more like the real basics. There is super rudimentary stuff they're spending half the class on that as long as you care about training your dog, you'd have learned on your own and already been practicing, like I said above. And since they recommend both the virtual and in-person one, it means I'm double-paying for some of it. That's the "scam" of it. But I'm sure some people take theirs to class without even knowing or trying any of it at home first.



Yeah honestly if I knew 2 weeks ago what I know now I'd have only paid for the in-person one, specifically for the accountability but also for the group interaction. Last night they double-covered some of what's already been gone over in the virtual one, and the rest of the virtual one in 2 sessions I've already learned by reading books/internet articles about positive reinforcement training and whatnot.



The training class required proof of vaccinations and stuff, plus the enclosure was kept really well-sanitized. There was also a good protocol to follow in case one of the puppies pottied on the floor (basically raise your hand and say it happened, everybody does a front collar hold with treat/kibble, and wait for someone to re-sanitize the spot).

As far as ages to interact with dogs, I think it's really mixed. There are a lot of established Shiba resources that say the earlier the better in socialization. A lady yesterday who had a Shikoku was telling me she had a Shiba before and her mistake was not socializing him at classes like she's doing with the Shikoku, so her Shiba later in life had more issues with playing with other dogs.

I was perfectly willing to wait longer but as long as the class and trainer seem well-prepared (which they do, so far), I _think_ it's worth doing.

I've also carried him around a lot in my apartment complex and sometimes we come across other neighbors' dogs, from a distance. This way he can safely without risk learn to see other dogs, hear them if they bark or whatever, etc. He mostly does fine. There was one time when one scared him a bit but usually he tries to sniff in their direction and stuff.

I'd say I pretty much never use his name in discipline except very rarely when he's doing FRAPS at night and starts really going bitey haywire but even then I just try to redirect and give him a toy or put him in a spot that's safe for it. We've been practicing "Haru, come!" and right now he does it probably 40-50% of the time, even if I don't have a treat to tempt him with.

Lots of 10 or so minute training sessions. I try to do one every "awake" session between naps with good treats and stuff.

But yeah it's all a challenge either way! So much new information and completely new experiences for both of us. I worry a lot, lol.

What I have learned from this is that apparently things have changed a lot since I was a kid and we raised puppys!
All this "fed it special foods", "train it with this full psychologically developed methods", "keep it away from other dogs or even the places that may possibly have had other dogs in them", etc, etc just seems to be a major pain in the ass!
Our dogs all behaved just fine with some very basic training, they ate, rolled in, or carried around all sorts of unknown gross things without ill effects and the cheapest kibble ever made and were healthy and happy.
Have they really bred dogs to the point where all the conditions mentioned have to be met to make sure it lives beyond puppyhood and behaves?

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Have they really bred dogs to the point where all the conditions mentioned have to be met to make sure it lives beyond puppyhood and behaves?

The short answer is no, they have not. I still treat my dogs pretty much as I always have, basic training to the point where I don't want to shoot them, feed them non-designer dog food and (gasp!) the occasional table scrap or butcher bone, and take them to the Vet only when there is something "really wrong".

I also have a dollar limit set on Vet care. I will not spend huge amounts of money on cancer treatments, MRIs or "maintenance drugs". I will treat them with dignity and kindness, and grieve for each one when they are gone.

I guess I'm just old school, or just old. I use to be one, now I'm both.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

]

I also have a dollar limit set on Vet care.

I think my dad had one of those limits on me and I came close to it a couple times. Good thing that hip surgery landed on my dime or I wouldn't be here.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I think my dad had one of those limits on me and I came close to it a couple times. Good thing that hip surgery landed on my dime or I wouldn't be here.

Ultimately, in the end, I suppose we all have that on us don't we?

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

What I have learned from this is that apparently things have changed a lot since I was a kid and we raised puppys!
All this "fed it special foods", "train it with this full psychologically developed methods", "keep it away from other dogs or even the places that may possibly have had other dogs in them", etc, etc just seems to be a major pain in the ass!
Our dogs all behaved just fine with some very basic training, they ate, rolled in, or carried around all sorts of unknown gross things without ill effects and the cheapest kibble ever made and were healthy and happy.
Have they really bred dogs to the point where all the conditions mentioned have to be met to make sure it lives beyond puppyhood and behaves?

I haven't had a dog before so I can't really compare.

What I do know is that lots of people are careless even with their own health or "training" (not living like idiots), and I live in a somewhat urban but still kinda suburban area where I can't trust everyone who has dogs. So I'm doing the training I can and trying to be health-conscious for him. Maybe a bit more than necessary but he's like my own actual kid and other than work it's not like I have other responsibilities, so I can afford to be a bit more careful.

[weederr33]

I had an extremely needy client today who wanted constant feedback on her form and where and how she should be feeling the exercises. It was awkward because her rather demanding demeanor. Towards the end she remarked that if she's "paying so much for training, no offense, but the trainer should be able to tell her this time of information since they are working for her." Seeing her and I were not a good match at all, I suggest she see a physical therapist instead. It was worth the bitch session from my boss.