How common is torque dip?

[Ultramaroon]

Here's where we part ways, @paulca. You are inferring that operating the vehicle between 5K-7K means mashing the gas pedal and driving like an asshat. This is completely wrong. Actually, I encourage everyone to get comfortable and smooth operating the vehicle up there. The engine and drive line dynamics are a little different and it's a valuable skill to learn.

Run it up there only for a couple minutes at a time unless you have a decent oil cooler.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Here's where we part ways, @paulca. You are inferring that operating the vehicle between 5K-7K means mashing the gas pedal and driving like an asshat. This is completely wrong.

I'm saying driving around with it reving at 5k-7k when there is no need is ... pointless and creates potential risk and disadvantages.

I'm not saying don't ever do it. I agree the car is quite different and dynamic at higher rpm and it's nice to play with it once in a while when a safe opportunity to 'give it the beans' presents itself, but as your final point notes it's high stress on the engine. Driving on track is probably less stressful than cruising along at 30mph in 1st at 7k.

I'm only taking objection to those claiming that driving around in a normal sensible fashion at 2-3k or less 90% of the time is somehow the incorrect way to drive this (or any car). Seemingly because it's a frisky sports car it should be rev'ed everywhere. Non-sense.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Deep Six

If it wasn't an issue there simply wouldn't be so many modified cars on the road.

Baloney!

Take a look around, 99/100 cars on the road are bone stock. Yes even the 86's.

[PetrolioBenzina]

Originally Posted by paulca

So you think rev'ing your engine is the correct way to drive? Everywhere, all of the time?

Advice coming from a nation where 99% of people drive Autos and 1 in 4 think the Sun goes round the Earth...

The UK has done a massive amount of driving safety research for many decades.

To be allowed to drive a manual car in the UK (or at least to get a UK manual license) you need to do a test in a manual.

How many of you US guys have done a driving test in a manual car?

Seriously, you guys telling me how to drive a manual is like a fucking yoga instructor trying to explain the delegate design pattern to a software engineer!

I'm 54. I learned to drive in an Edsel and on a tractor, all manual cars since. Tell me more about driving a manual. What does the transmission type have to do with your driving ability?

And, it's not about you, as butthurt as you seem to want to be. It's about how pathetic the UK has become, your whining about how you must drive there or face legal consequences is a prime example.

What I and everyone else (at least here on the forum) considers "normal" driving (AKA fun) seems to be illegal there. Not our problem the nanny state there sucks. From your description, I'd be at risk of getting stopped going from my place to the grocery store, driving "normally". Sucks to be you!

In your honor and so that you may have some fun vicariously, I'll take a drive down my favorite road on Saturday and make every effort to keep it above 4k the whole way.

Originally Posted by paulca

I'm only taking objection to those claiming that driving around in a normal sensible fashion at 2-3k or less 90% of the time is somehow the incorrect way to drive this (or any car). Seemingly because it's a frisky sports car it should be rev'ed everywhere. Non-sense.

The only one ranting about an "incorrect" driving style is you. Most of us just feel sorry for you for having to live with such nanny-state crap. And I'm going argue that a rational adult who has the freedom to explore the limits of the car in a reasonable, responsible, and legal fashion (again, AKA fun) is going to be a better driver than a person who lives with the regs you suffer under.

Originally Posted by paulca

None of us want our insurance going up and up because little Jonny thinks it's cool to red line the car in every gear through every little town with kids out playing.

Not one person on this forum would advocate doing that, and if they did, they would rightly take crap for it. However, if nanny came along and told them to stick to the speeds and RPM's you posted earlier, you'd be laughed at, and rightly so for that, too. It sucks that you have taken the idiotic laws you have to live with and internalized them so much that it is a personal insult to you to be told otherwise. It DOES suck to be you.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by PetrolioBenzina

I'm 54. I learned to drive in an Edsel and on a tractor, all manual cars since. Tell me more about driving a manual. What does the transmission type have to do with your driving ability?

And, it's not about you, as butthurt as you seem to want to be. It's about how pathetic the UK has become, your whining about how you must drive there or face legal consequences is a prime example.

What I and everyone else (at least here on the forum) considers "normal" driving (AKA fun) seems to be illegal there. Not our problem the nanny state there sucks. From your description, I'd be at risk of getting stopped going from my place to the grocery store, driving "normally". Sucks to be you!

In your honor and so that you may have some fun vicariously, I'll take a drive down my favorite road on Saturday and make every effort to keep it above 4k the whole way.



The only one ranting about an "incorrect" driving style is you. Most of us just feel sorry for you for having to live with such nanny-state crap. And I'm going argue that a rational adult who has the freedom to explore the limits of the car in a reasonable, responsible, and legal fashion (again, AKA fun) is going to be a better driver than a person who lives with the regs you suffer under.



Not one person on this forum would advocate doing that, and if they did, they would rightly take crap for it. However, if nanny came along and told them to stick to the speeds and RPM's you posted earlier, you'd be laughed at, and rightly so for that, too. It sucks that you have taken the idiotic laws you have to live with and internalized them so much that it is a personal insult to you to be told otherwise. It DOES suck to be you.

What the fuck are babbling about now? The UK kick your puppy or something? Not even sure where you get your news but it sounds like it is the usual US twisted version you are referring to. It isn't the bloody US and has different laws, so what? Yours seem to be doing a stellar job of reducing crime (especially the violent type). http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...d-States/Crime

Am I other only person that has actually read and understood what Paul is saying? He has never once said anything about laws (unless you mean where he said you attract the cops attention which you do. Of course then when most here get a ticket they whine about how the police are unfair and only looking for money. He was very clear that what he was speaking to are the guys that claim "YA bro I drive at red line all the time, heel and toe for every turn and power slide into my parking spot in the morning". This is what he was saying isn't real and he is right. Anybody that claims they drive like that ALL THE TIME is full of shit. He never said not to have fun he said do it in the right place at the right time which again is something many here can seem to understand when and where that is. As far as the MT thing goes he is again correct but he just didn't narrow it down to the right group. Anybody about 40 or under in North America that drives an MT and are part of the 4% club probably had not proper instruction beyond the internet. Much of what the internet teaches is crap and just keep building worse and worse MT drivers as they pass it on as "the best way".

[mrg666]

Sooo, what was the decision about torque dip? I am, actually, starting to think that it might be important after all.

PS: We are discussing cars guys. Just a reminder

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Sooo, what was the decision about torque dip? I am, actually, starting to think that it might be important after all.

PS: We are discussing cars guys. Just a reminder

Well, my conclusion is that ...... it is what it is.

It's only important if you allow it to be.

Personally, I knew the "torque dip" was there when I bought the car ...... so, I just pay it no never mind .....


humfrz

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by paulca

How many of you US guys have done a driving test in a manual car?

One more here. Took it in a 4 speed.

I've been driving things with clutches since I was a child. I used to drive one of my grandpa's Peterbuilts around in his truck yard when I was about 10 by myself. My mom and grandma drove into the yard one time when I was driving around and grandpa was in the shop having beers with his buddies. Man my mom had a cow. As soon as they left i asked grandpa if I could drive the truck some more. All he said was "don't tell your mother."

On my drivers test at 16 I got marked down 2 points for "choice of gear" and "coasting". Got a 98 out of 100.

My wife also has been driving MT her whole life, in fact, everyone I knew growing up could drive MT pretty much.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

.............. I've been driving things with clutches since I was a child. I used to drive one of my grandpa's Peterbuilts around in his truck yard when I was about 10 by myself. My mom and grandma drove into the yard one time when I was driving around and grandpa was in the shop having beers with his buddies. Man my mom had a cow. As soon as they left i asked grandpa if I could drive the truck some more. All he said was "don't tell your mother."

.

There he is, folks, making a run to Gilroy and back ....... before his mom gets back to pick him up ......


humfrz

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by paulca

I'm only taking objection to those claiming that driving around in a normal sensible fashion at 2-3k or less 90% of the time is somehow the incorrect way to drive this (or any car). Seemingly because it's a frisky sports car it should be rev'ed everywhere. Non-sense.

I'm guilty of skimming while at work during my lunch break. Reading more carefully and dispassionately, I agree with you. I was reacting more to the tone. Meh, I'm human.

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Sooo, what was the decision about torque dip?

These torque dip posts always crack me up. Every engine in every car I have ever driven has been different when the power comes, and the power goes. We all knew it. We all learned the cars we drove. No one talked about it. We called it the power band.

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by humfrz

There he is, folks, making a run to Gilroy and back ....... before his mom gets back to pick him up ......


humfrz

My Grandpa's yard had a giant figure 8 gravel road where all the trucks were parked and the shop and gas pumps, then about 20 acres of flat dry Los Angeles desert. I would go out and do donuts. Grandpa would join me with a beer of course. We would laugh our asses off. My grandpa was great. Different times.

I know....

Sorry

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Sooo, what was the decision about torque dip? I am, actually, starting to think that it might be important after all.

It's not just important, it's a physical reality. The real miracle is in squeezing all that torque out of the low end.

I've shied away from engaging in torque curve discussions because I don't have enough practical experience to support my argument technically. The explanation is out there if one uses search terms like "intake helmholtz resonance."

I'm comfortable thinking of the whole system as a musical instrument. There's not much difference between tuning a flute versus tuning intake and exhaust manifolds to an engine at a specific frequency. Thats where a strong torque bump is felt. Variable valve timing or variable (dual) length intake runners get the most out of the effect.

Rather than thinking of it as a torque dip, think of it as making the most of two peaks in volumetric efficiency. It's not a coincidence that they're about an octave apart.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

We called it the power band.

Yeah, this!

(took too long to write mine.)