CAN BUS - for DIY swappers, HELP! Engineers / shops welcome

[DustinS]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Thanks for the reply.

Do other engines not already have a crank position sensor? Would the wires not match up; ie, one car uses two and the other uses three?

Couldn't VVT be eliminated by getting fixed cams and just tuning the cams for top end (assuming the engine that is used has some type of VVT)? Doesn't VVT essentially exist for economy driving and perhaps more low end power mostly? Couldn't parameters for augmenting VVT be eliminated or made to be static in a tuning capacity?

I wouldn't be thinking of having a company do this for me. This would be for a DIYer who wants to take on a project car.

It has been done on an LS before. The problem becomes you must use the FRS wiring AND sensors and adapt them to the new engine. You can't just swap sensors and everything play nice.

He had a custom crank pulley made which was an FRS crank position wheel welded to the back of an LS crank pulley and a custom mount for the crank position sensor. Running wasted spark on ignition. Only one cam so it had a permanent CEL as it couldn't see the 4 cams. He is also running carbs as technically only 4 Port injector outputs.

It could work better on a 4 cyl theoretically, but would require more work than it would take to use one of the multitude of options currently on the market.

ECU Masters has just mentioned that they support the canbus system of the FRS with their EMUblack. Which comes in just over $1000. Which will run pretty much anything you could need to run.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by DustinS

It has been done on an LS before. The problem becomes you must use the FRS wiring AND sensors and adapt them to the new engine. You can't just swap sensors and everything play nice.

He had a custom crank pulley made which was an FRS crank position wheel welded to the back of an LS crank pulley and a custom mount for the crank position sensor. Running wasted spark on ignition. Only one cam so it had a permanent CEL as it couldn't see the 4 cams. He is also running carbs as technically only 4 Port injector outputs.

It could work better on a 4 cyl theoretically, but would require more work than it would take to use one of the multitude of options currently on the market.

ECU Masters has just mentioned that they support the canbus system of the FRS with their EMUblack. Which comes in just over $1000. Which will run pretty much anything you could need to run.

Thanks. That is cheap. What don't you get though that say a Motec unit would provide?

[s0sl0w]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Thanks. That is cheap. What don't you get though that say a Motec unit would provide?

Also interested in an answer to this.

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by s0sl0w

Also interested in an answer to this.

Are you asking what you get from a motec vs EMU black?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by geraldjust

Are you asking what you get from a motec vs EMU black?

Essentially what is included in one product and not in another that gives someone value for that extra cost? Is it features, plug and play ease to install, finding tuners capable to operate the software, suppprt from the company, reliability in the product, etc?

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Essentially what is included in one product and not in another that gives someone value for that extra cost? Is it features, plug and play ease to install, finding tuners capable to operate the software, suppprt from the company, reliability in the product, etc?

Well i had some experience with the EMU black for a client. As for wiring your kinda on your own as far as i know. I tried to look for any examples or anything they could provide other than Can H and Can L for wiring. But nothing. So you kinda have to figure out everything else. They dont seem to have a plug and play kit either. When they say Full can bus Integration im guessing some of the basic things are supported for sure. But i have not personally seen or heard of anyone confirm that Traction control works too (although they say it does) or even minor things like fuel consumption signals needed for actuate fuel level. Also haven't heard anything about Cruse Control, Or Manual AC or Automatic AC. And nothing on push start cars. Which that is more of physical hybrid with wires and CANBUS data to get that working without errors.

I dont know much about the motec system but i know they offer it as a full plug and play kit. So all the issues i brought up on top are more than likely ironed out.

So im guessing were most of your money for the motec goes to the ease of use to install and the guarantee that most if not all your stock features will be working like stock.

Not sure about tuners since im not one lol.

But for company support Ive had minor interactions with the EMU guys. Although they seemed on top of things, Ive had to send a couple of emails to even get the right version of the PC software that included the GT86/BRZ compatibility. Even though they have advertised in their website that their software was there. I brought it to their attention, then i checked back in a month and it was still not there. And i JUST checked again and its still the same Version 2.066. I also just looked and their "change logs" and they removed any mentions of the Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ from the EMU black. I also offered to help them with the CAN integration if they had any issues but they just told me they have "full can integration" so no they did not need it...

And can anyone find any changelogs where they mentioned the BRZ/GT86? because i noticed they removed it.

EDIT**

So after searching there websites for hidden files finally found the right changelog file for there EMU black.
https://www.ecumaster.com/files/EMU_BLACK/changeLog.pdf
And under one of there updates it seems they they support "Toyota GT86 start button (when pressed with the clutch)" under 2.079 update. But from my knowledge, i know that there is a couple of signals needed to get push start to work correctly. And no wiring diagrams ... so the hunt continues. I find it very weird that they hid this file though.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Essentially what is included in one product and not in another that gives someone value for that extra cost? Is it features, plug and play ease to install, finding tuners capable to operate the software, suppprt from the company, reliability in the product, etc?

Motec is the top tier ECU. On top of CAN integration, it provides plenty many features and advanced customizations like incredibly effective traction control.

You have to sit down and think what things you NEED/WANT. If you need full CAN integration, ease of swap with the wiring figured out with a plug an play harness, go with the Pure Motec package. I have it and can attest to the Motec and plug and play features and can also confirm Pure stands by their product 100% and will be there to support you.

I've seen firsthand Element Tuning "plug and play" package with full CAN integration and it was a nightmare. Wires that did not reach the sensors, open wires that needed to be custom routed and plugs added to have basic features working and not enough inputs for critical stuff like, idle control on a cable throttle.

Yes, the Motec package is expensive. It will just depend on what value you put on almost limitless features, full CAN integration and the advantage of painfree wiring which can become a big task on a swap depending on what other option you decide to go with and how comfortable you/your shop is with wiring.

To me, after going through a swap, the extra cost as well worth it. Of course, some people don't need all the stuff Motec provides (track only car for example) and are comfortable with wiring. In those cases, it's harder to justify.

[s0sl0w]

Do ya'll mind if I start discussing my CAN/OBD2 efforts in this thread?


My goal is to have the OBD2 system functional enough that those of us living in OBD2 inspection states can also enjoy swaps.

[s0sl0w]

Does anyone know how the BRZ ECU handles monitoring (continuous vs. non continuous) for the following three optional parameters? (misfire, fuel and components per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs).

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by s0sl0w

Does anyone know how the BRZ ECU handles monitoring (continuous vs. non continuous) for the following parameters the three optional parameters? (misfire, fuel and components per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs).

By handles what do you mean? the brz and any other car need to conform to the obd2 standard. So it should be the same like in any other car. are you looking to read those parameters or emulate them?

[ThatDamnRanga]

With standalones that support OBD-II, it's usually literally just a matter of ticking the 'enable obd-ii' box.

[s0sl0w]

Originally Posted by geraldjust

By handles what do you mean? the brz and any other car need to conform to the obd2 standard. So it should be the same like in any other car. are you looking to read those parameters or emulate them?

Does the ECU monitor those parameters on a continual or non continual basis? Per the OBD2 specification it is up to the manufacturer to decide what monitoring they will use for those parameters in respect to OBD2 testing. So I was hoping someone knew what type of monitoring Subaru chose.

Originally Posted by ThatDamnRanga

With standalones that support OBD-II, it's usually literally just a matter of ticking the 'enable obd-ii' box.

I am unaware of a standalone that supports OBD2. Do you have further information?

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by s0sl0w

Does the ECU monitor those parameters on a continual or non continual basis? Per the OBD2 specification it is up to the manufacturer to decide what monitoring they will use for those parameters in respect to OBD2 testing. So I was hoping someone knew what type of monitoring Subaru chose.





I am unaware of a standalone that supports OBD2. Do you have further information?

Well why should it matter what subaru uses? you need to search for the GM ecu data not subaru.

For what you doing it should be somewhat simple when it comes to OBD2....

1) The factory canbus data output by the Engine ECU need to be translated over to then emulate the factory canbus data ( this is not referring to anything to do with the OBD2 protocol).

2) Since you can have both the canbus network from the rest of the car and the GM ecu in the same network. You can use the same OBD2 port to access using the same OBD2 protocol (from the GM).

IF your planning on doing anything obd2 wize on the canbus port... (like emulating, translating or messing with the data in any form) i cant help because that gets you in a gray area of legality.

[s0sl0w]

Originally Posted by geraldjust

Well why should it matter what subaru uses? you need to search for the GM ecu data not subaru.

For what you doing it should be somewhat simple when it comes to OBD2....

1) The factory canbus data output by the Engine ECU need to be translated over to then emulate the factory canbus data ( this is not referring to anything to do with the OBD2 protocol).

2) Since you can have both the canbus network from the rest of the car and the GM ecu in the same network. You can use the same OBD2 port to access using the same OBD2 protocol (from the GM).

IF your planning on doing anything obd2 wize on the canbus port... (like emulating, translating or messing with the data in any form) i cant help because that gets you in a gray area of legality.

I don't know how a GM ECU came up, I'm planning on a K swap. That said:


If a 96+ swapped car is going to pass emissions in most states outside of California then it has to have a visible cat(s) underneath the car and it has to register "ready" on the OBD2 scanner test. I figure there are two ~legitimatish~ ways to make that happen. I'm not particularly interested in disregarding the spirit of the law.


Either: The OBD2 testing computer talks to a Honda ECU
1) Rewire the car with the new ECU, basically you'd be swapping the entire ecu/fuel/emissions related wiring harnesses from *x honda K* car into the BRZ. Once you've done that and got it working you'd have to reprogram the ECU to reflect the BRZ VIN. I'm not 100% certain how possible it is to reprogram a VIN to another manufacturer/model.


Or: The OBD2 Testing computer talks to the BRZ ECU
2) Successfully translate the OBD2 relevant information from the Honda (or other) ecu onto the CANBUS so that the BRZ ECU will ingest it and achieve a ready state. In short, as far the BRZ ecu and OBD2 test would ever know the car is a stock BRZ.


If I knew for certain that I could reprogram the VIN on a Honda ECU to reflect my BRZ chassis VIN I wouldn't even waste time trying to figure out option #2.