HKS Intake duct.

[FR-Sizzle]

Originally Posted by Admiral Ballsy

Well, yes, they would make all the difference in whether there was any pressurization at all.

I've spent a LOT of time testing "ram air" systems (on motorcycles, FWIW), on a dyno, in a wind tunnel. My senior design project in college dealt with it - the Kawasaki ZX-11 had just been announced, the first bike (and AFAIK the first road vehicle, period) with a true sealed and pressurized intake tract.

You don't get any benefits AT ALL unless the system is 100% sealed, and you have to be traveling over about 100MPH. Even then, the difference is quite subtle - it's less a power boost than it is a 'reshaping' of the power curve.

"Ram air" systems on cars nearly always derive whatever benefits they provide through cooler air, not pressurization - if for no other reason than street cars almost never go fast enough to gain anything.

IMO a company like HKS ussually doesnt release parts that are BS. Almost every part they sell has a gain whether it is small or big, they definitely do their R&D. I doubt they would of released it with the holes without considering how it would effect the part/performance.

The holes can be covered also if you really think the holes would be problematic. The difference if there is any effect on performance would be so minimal you probably wouldnt even notice it when driving.

Originally Posted by zooki

I think you port velocity will be affected more by the plenum size of the actual intake manifold, and the shape & length of the runners, not the air filter assembly. Unless you change the actual intake manifold I can't see it making much of a difference. IMHO, 5 HP @ 7000 rpm isn't going to be noticeable in a 2800 lb. car. But that's just my opinion.

There is a good chance this part wont see any big gain on a dyno as other ducts for other cars dont see gains as it requires you to be driving 60-80 mph to feel the difference on most parts like this. Mugen/J's intakes for the s2000 on a dyno are out performed by a 300 dollar AEM intake by 10 whp on a dyno but every owner who has owned both have reported that the Mugen/J's racing intakes are better when you are actually driving since a dyno fan cant imitate real driving conditions. With the way it is designed every owner has said that the AEM has better peak power but the Mugen/J's all out perform it when you are actually driving around especially on the freeway when you are going fast. Most intakes for this car are for sound/throttle response. If you buy an intake hoping to boost your whp a lot you are doing it wrong. Every intake for our cars perform literally the same as a drop in filter, most people get CAI's and Short rams for the sound and throttle response. IMO every intake available for our cars except the FA20, Perrin and GruppeM are worse than a drop in as they are more prone to soaking in hot air. The OEM air box is already well designed and drop ins are the best bang for your buck if you want to increase your whp vs paying 300 for an intake from Injen, AFE, Greddy or Perrin. If money wasnt a factor the Gruppe M would be the best hands down. It uses a huge drop in air filter like the TRD and has 2 big ducts that are on top/infront of the radiator.

An aftermarket drop in and this duct would be better than 95% of the intakes on the market and would cost only 250~ dollars making it cheaper than a lot of other intakes you see for our cars. Ducts dont really get a big increase in power by them selves as they are more for throttle response and unless you dyno in a wind tunnel you wont be able to copy real world driving conditions at 60-80 MPH where you would see the gains at for parts like this duct, Max Racing Duct, Syms Racing duct, Gruppe M. With a Drop in and Silicone tube this intake would cost nearly as much as a Perrin CAI or TRD intake and out perform it. A drop in already gets around 5 WHP silicone tubes dont really get much gain if any but it can help smooth out the air to help improve the oem design and the duct combined with this will improve the drop in filter but letting it get more air. Just a drop in and the duct would perform better than other intakes and you can throw in a silicone tube and it would cost just as much as a TRD intake and probably out perform it too as the TRD intake gets very little gain.'

The Syms Intake Duct got 10 wtq and about 8 WHP on a dyno. I am assuming Syms used a drop in filter with it to get those gains. So if you already have a drop in and silicone tube this part would add 2-3 whp and increased throttle response, making it better than most other intakes on the market. Other intakes IMO are not worth getting as the drop ins with the OEM air box increase WHP and you dont lose any power at all through out the dyno unlike other intakes who have slight drops of whp here and there.

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by sierra

So the ram effect is negligible. What is important is cool, stable air without restriction to the throttle body requirements. This intake looks able to deliver that[for its part] whereas an intake placed directly into the incoming air is in danger of an erratic supply from turbulence, unless it's placed in clear air as in F1 cars.

F1 intakes are effected by the drivers helmets at speed and would only be free from turbulent air if they weren't following another car. But that’s getting off topic a bit.

What makes you think that air in that part of the bumper will be stable? Not having a go at you but for air to make it to the HKS intake it has to bounce off the radiator and make it around the crash structure or through the perforated plastic bit between the intake and radiator. And directly below the intake is a big slab of foam blocking airflow.

[sierra]

The quote facility doesn't seem to be working?

The air behind the front grill and in front of the heat exchangers would be relatively high pressure[at speed] with the lower pressure in the engine bay drawing the air through the restriction of those cooling fins. The air speed from the grill through those HE's would be relatively slow compared to the vehicle speed as the incoming air largely diverts around the high pressure area.
The further you get away from the incoming air the less the turbulence and up the top where the OEM intake is placed should be quite stable, relatively speaking. It doesn't matter where the air comes in from as long as it's stable and cool. The negative might be the heat bleeding into the intake from the engine cooling radiator.
In your pic you have the air flow coming from everywhere but where it's likely to be flowing from, which is from directly below and up through the gap behind the intrusion bar and the intake.

Crosswinds and sweeping turns, for example, could change the flow characteristics more, immediately behind the front grill than up the top where the OEC and HKS are mounted.

You have had no problems so in practice it appears not to matter.

[FR-Sizzle]

Originally Posted by Admiral Ballsy

If - IF - there is anything to be gained from pressurization (and I'm pretty confident in this case there isn't), it's got to be, well, pressurized. Which means no drain holes, etc.

Syms and HKS both have this duct with basically the same design. If it didnt work then you wouldnt see two companies who are both well known and respected in Japan to make such products. Both companies do there R&D and I am sure HKS could of released this much earlier as Syms had this released last year. HKS released this product almost a year after Syms released it and they probably added the holes for good reason as it may of even improved on Sym's design by adding them.. You guys think HKS didnt try it without the holes? One would think when designing a part like this that the most common sense thing to do would be not to have the holes there but they probably added it for good reason and if they saw little to no change in performance. I dont know how things like patenting works over in Japan but that also could be a reason why they added the holes as they couldnt just directly make a duct that is so similar to another companies design as this is literally the same thing except without the carbon fiber and a little smaller than the Sym's design.

But if you buy a duct or any intake for power you are buying it for the wrong reasons. Throttle response is the thing you should be buying air ducts for. Anything else is just a bonus. My last post talked about the gains to be had from the Syms and HKS ducts which is very possible considering it is just an improvement to the stock snorkel if you care so much about the whp to be had from something like this.

Its not like it wont get air as when your driving at 60+ mph wind will be hitting all over the car. The oem air scoop is placed in a similar location and this should still get plenty of air/pressure when your driving. Now when you put a fan on a dyno on it then obviously it might be different but parts like these cant be judged just based on dyno numbers as they are different. The difference in air that it gets with or without the holes wont be noticeable at all.

I would like to see if this has any effect on the TRD intake, I doubt the numbers would be any different from what you see on the OEM air box but it would be nice to see but that is making the TRD intake already pushing 600-700 dollars with this duct.

You guys put way too much thought into stuff like how air would reach the ducts n shit. Honestly when your driving at high speeds it doesnt fucking matter the difference is so small you wouldnt even notice the difference in power if its just 1-2 whp difference. The pros far out weight the cons for this product, the only bad thing about this duct is the holes which could be bad or good we wont know for sure but if your paranoid just cover them up. This intake duct is a great design and if you are seriously not going to buy it because it might have a 1 whp difference in performance that you wont even feel or because of a couple of holes that you can just cover your self, you really need to get over it because it doesnt matter for a part that is 200-300 bucks and is already better than most of the intakes on the market for the price.

[Admiral Ballsy]

Originally Posted by FR-Sizzle

parts like these cant be judged just based on dyno numbers as they are different.

That argument sounds a lot like the 'audiophile' guys who say that you can't judge their $1000 power cables with double-blind A/B tests because they're not fair.

[zooki]

So, umm, if this part doesn't really make any more power, and most aftermarket intakes don't really make any more power, tell me again why this is better, and why exactly should I buy it? And if you say "better throttle response", I leave you this:
Force = Mass x Acceleration.

Until you figure out why you can't have better throttle response without an increase in horsepower, unless you lighten the reciprocating weight, then I don't know what to say....

[Fett4Real]

Originally Posted by zooki

So, umm, if this part doesn't really make any more power, and most aftermarket intakes don't really make any more power, tell me again why this is better, and why exactly should I buy it? And if you say "better throttle response", I leave you this:
Force = Mass x Acceleration.

When you figure out why you can't have better throttle response without an increase in horsepower, unless you lighten the reciprocating weight, then I don't know what to say....

"it looks nicer" and you will see it all the time while the bumper is off the car....

[FR-Sizzle]

Originally Posted by zooki

So, umm, if this part doesn't really make any more power, and most aftermarket intakes don't really make any more power, tell me again why this is better, and why exactly should I buy it? And if you say "better throttle response", I leave you this:
Force = Mass x Acceleration.

Until you figure out why you can't have better throttle response without an increase in horsepower, unless you lighten the reciprocating weight, then I don't know what to say....

It will gain powe just don't expect it to outperform other intakes by it self. If you put a drop in filter you can expect the duct to outperform most intakes. The sums duct got 8whp 10 wtq and that was mos likely with a drop in filter. This duct is practically the same design but a little smaller so I will perform similar IMO.

Other intakes don't really add anymore than a drop in this combined with one will definitely see around the same amount of gains as the syms as it just improves the oem design. Most drop ins get as much increase in performance as most intakes available so the duct will improve a drop ins performance slightly enough to make it as good or even better than most short ram and cai

[zooki]

As I await FR-Sizzle's next installment of the novel he must be writing, I'll just say if you want to buy it, buy it. Doesn't make me a bit of difference. But to claim its a better design with no data to back it up is a little premature....I'm not swayed by manafacturer's claims or "moonshine"...

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by zooki

Until you figure out whyyou can't have better throttle response without an increase in horsepower, unless you lighten the reciprocating weight, then I don't know what to say....

You basically made a proof against your own claim so I actually don't know what to say. Yes, throttle response is not linked to increased horsepower, very often the opposite to be honest. You are confusing apples w/ oranges a bit here and grossly oversimplifying the analysis.

To help you out, put a big ass snail on a engine versus a smaller one, assume you can even equalize the masses at the same speed and you'll see how the big turbo w/ the big dyno numbers sucks in responsiveness compared to a disco potato.

If anything, throttle response is more correlated to torque production and velocity of air versus your idea of F=MA of the vehicle which is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Are there people out there that actually think a bigger throttle body increases response? I hope not...

[FR-Sizzle]

Originally Posted by zooki

As I await FR-Sizzle's next installment of the novel he must be writing, I'll just say if you want to buy it, buy it. Doesn't make me a bit of difference. But to claim its a better design with no data to back it up is a little premature....I'm not swayed by manafacturer's claims or "moonshine"...

How stubborn/ignorant are you? To say that just because theirs no data to back up this specific part when other parts like it all have made results that arent surprising for what they are. Almost every intake for this car has produced similar results as a drop in filter and theres no reason to think this part would be any different. Look at all the modifications for this car. When a reputable company releases a part like Perrin do you see people dynoing the car just to see the results of the part? Only shops with access to a dyno have that luxury as no one is going to spend money to dyno a part when companies like them can be trusted because of there reputation. You want data for a part that for other cars dont even produce a big difference in power if any on a dyno by them selves. Most parts on this car / forum havent been dyno'd independently except by the shops and thats still just a small percentage of the parts available. Most people have dyno's for a combination of parts but a single part is very rare as its a waste of money especially for an intake. Very few parts on this forum have yet to be dyno'd as there isnt any big reason too unless its from a shady company that has question marks in its reputation.

Intake ducts dont show a big increase on a dyno simply because you cant imitate real world driving conditions on a dyno with just a fan. To even see a difference on the part you need to be driving 60-80 mph for it to be noticed. Every company on these forums give you results on their parts from there own findings on a dyno. Most of them are pretty close to the results you would get and theres a difference between a shady companies results like Agency Power/Vivid and a well reputable companies like Syms, HKS, Greddy, or any other vendor who has been around for a long time with a reputation to protect.

If Syms Racing claimed their intake duct with a drop in got 10-15 whp then it leaves a big question mark on their claims but when you look at the average for drop ins and there results its not like it is not believable to see a part like that get a couple more hp with it added to a drop in. Your either new to the car modding scene as there are tons of other cars that use an intake duct that attaches to the OEM air boxes and they all have plenty of data for their cars that have been around much longer and it should be no different than the results are about the same for 4 bangers. They get either no difference on a dyno or a couple of hp and when a drop in filter is added they produce similar results to the intakes for that platform. Just look at cars like the s2000 which one of the most popular intakes are the Spoon and J's racing intake that are intake ducts. They dont provide big gains on a dyno by them selves but the tons of owners who have the part have reviewed it and all said the same thing on how it performs. Its no different than this part as its been done over n over again for other cars and it made gains similar to other cars like them.

[sierra]

Originally Posted by FR-Sizzle

How stubborn/ignorant are you?

To even see a difference on the part you need to be driving 60-80 mph for it to be noticed.

There is no need to be abusive towards other posters, especially when you are strong in those particular areas yourself.

The boost effect at those speeds has been proven ineffective, especially for this application.

[brz_star21]

It's amazing how a simple intake duct can spark such heated debate.

Bottom line, if you've got the $$ and it appeals to you... buy it.

[Turdinator]

Some one on the forums just installed a Symes intake as well as a Sard intake tube, full super sprint exhaust (including headers) and ohlins coilovers... Symes thread HERE.