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Old 08-01-2013, 09:06 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by M1K3 View Post
So yes you do not need to be shifting to induce knock in these type of conditions.
Shifting is one method, just driving along and then stamping on the loud pedal is another. Transients are happening all the time, what's relevant is how quickly the transient event happens and what else is going on at the time.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:28 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by regal View Post
I don't understand why everyone keeps saying the issue is only related to shifting.

My seals are blown and I've never shifted from 3rd into 4th at redline, that's way over the speed limit where I live.

However I have on many occasion taken a rural curvy road at 5k+ in 2nd and 3rd rpm letting on/off throttle for several miles. And I am sure many others have done this too. This is not reckless driving.

The fact that the nurburgring rental firms have completely dropped this platform is worldwide news and this issue needs addressed. Its a huge red flag.

I stood by with the CEL issue , was the first to publicly post that a simple ECU flash will fix and not to panick. But this DI issue is a serious problem. But I am seriously looking at replacing the seals myself and getting out from under this car before word spreads and resale tanks.

I waiting 4 years following this car's development but a low milage MR-S or S2k sounds so good right now.
How do you know you seals are blown? Did you pull them to see?
If you have popping noises at idle and other times.. Then you should be able to take it in under warranty and have them take care of it. Try another dealer if they aren't taking you seriously.
I don't have any popping noises.. I drive it hard above 5k rpms and shift all the time.. Every chance I get.. And I don't have any issues.. And there are tens of thousands of others out there doing the same.. Seems some early builds have this issue.. A handful compared to the amount sold... Seems like an isolated issue to me.. If it were a design issue.. Then we would be seeing a lot more of these problems and they would be easily duplicated.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:47 AM   #101
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How do you know you seals are blown? Did you pull them to see?
If you have popping noises at idle and other times.. Then you should be able to take it in under warranty and have them take care of it. Try another dealer if they aren't taking you seriously.
I don't have any popping noises.. I drive it hard above 5k rpms and shift all the time.. Every chance I get.. And I don't have any issues.. And there are tens of thousands of others out there doing the same.. Seems some early builds have this issue.. A handful compared to the amount sold... Seems like an isolated issue to me.. If it were a design issue.. Then we would be seeing a lot more of these problems and they would be easily duplicated.

I have full on firecrackers above 5k, its undeniable but most loud under load so you don't hear it in 2nd on a flat road. In 3rd above 5k its very loud fireworks constant, unfortunately that's over the speed limit so no dealer will take it there. I've tried two in my area same thing "When you get a CEL bring it back."

Since the dealers don't have the ECU calibration fix it wouldn't make much sense to push the issue any way.

Car is parked costing $500/mo with insurance as I drive my Yaris waiting and waiting on Toyota. Frustrating.

But at least now the proposed ECU fix is making sense as I did drove a lot over 5k "tiping" the throttle making turns etc. We have wonderful rural roads for this car where I live. So it isn't just high speed Racing as Subaru is claiming causing the failures.

The memo claiming the issue is just on WOT shifts from 3rd to 4th made no since to me since that's well above our speed limits.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:47 AM   #102
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Long term hopefully we see a oem fix or a aftermarket seal/injector. But for the time being im wondering what can be done to prevent it.

For sure the tune but what else could help? Would the car running cooler with a oil cooler help? Or aftermarket coils? Maybe meth? So far I have no symptoms but im sure sooner or later ill get them since i do push the car.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:34 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Mikem53 View Post
How do you know you seals are blown? Did you pull them to see?
If you have popping noises at idle and other times.. Then you should be able to take it in under warranty and have them take care of it. Try another dealer if they aren't taking you seriously.
I don't have any popping noises.. I drive it hard above 5k rpms and shift all the time.. Every chance I get.. And I don't have any issues.. And there are tens of thousands of others out there doing the same.. Seems some early builds have this issue.. A handful compared to the amount sold... Seems like an isolated issue to me.. If it were a design issue.. Then we would be seeing a lot more of these problems and they would be easily duplicated.
There would be thousands of people with blown engines. No doubt about that. I will find out soon I guess because 5-7K range for me is pretty much happening daily.

As much as I love this car, I am not emotionally attached to it. If it came to the point where I could no longer reliably drive the car I would sell it and move on.
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Old 08-01-2013, 11:15 AM   #104
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I finally had a chance to watch the video and read this thread. Thanks a ton for the great info here.

I have no inside info on the injectors or seals, but I can make a couple of educated guesses on some things. First, the bevel on the injector shaft just above the seal looks like it would aid in sealing as the gasket was push against it. Instead of just moving a little, the gasket should spread and seal between the injector shaft and wall around it. I've worked with high pressure seals that work very similarly. They're adjustable to get more use out of the seal.

Second, a stronger seal would certainly be good, but the seal clearly has to be stretched over the injector tip and that would drastically limit the material choices. If it wasn't for that an asbestos seal would work perfect.

I'm curious as to why this method of seal is used though. Why not use a copper o-ring at the top and just let the small cavity fill with carbon?

Last edited by Calum; 08-01-2013 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 08-01-2013, 12:29 PM   #105
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Life of Car - for 12k Miles

The car's life is 90% at 2000RPM. With 4 full RPM runs through 1-2nd roughly 290 days per year.

With additional 40 days being slightly more aggressive (weekends etc.)

I had two autox and two track days in 12k miles bone stock car stock ECU tuning. The track days were roughly 120 minutes total and included 3-4th redline shifts per lap, totaling roughly 30 times.
Autox, is always shift from 1-2nd right away and hold in second, no shifting.

The popping noise started after 500 miles with supercharger. Car was hot and had been run for about 2 hours. A hard run in second gear to 5000RPM had a very loud pop. And it happened again soon after. I assume it was an issue with the Perrin tune or spark advance.
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Old 08-01-2013, 12:50 PM   #106
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@Porsche @thill

I want to just plainly say that, I bought into the fact there maybe a serious issue with the car's DI seals. It started to eat away at me and made me question driving the car.

One of the biggest annoyances on here and the internet in general is that people do a lot of talking but don't provide much info. @regal not offense man I know you have have been dealt a raw deal but if you honestly believe you have an issue at some point you are going to have to eat crow and pull these injectors on your own. If you don't have that ability, roll the dice and have the dealer inspect them on your dime, If you are right, and the seals are toast they will cover the cost no out of pocket on your end.

As it stands right now we have a hand full of guys with serious issues, some of the main ones are hard core track guys, hundreds (maybe thousands) of laps on the board. Others with the issue there is virtually no information about why or how. Too many variables. At the end of the day it's my belief as long as you are not out running time trials every weekend on the track and WOT 70% of the time just drive the car like you want to. Eventually, the ECU will get updated and it will appear on a rainy day when Toyota decides to release it.
If you start to have a seal failure I do believe based on the design of these injectors you will get symptoms that will worsen and can be re-created under certain load conditions.

If you seals start to fail the car is not going to just blow up does not work that way.

There is more than one seal on the injector, they are torqued down to the insulators and backup rings for normal driving you may never notice the primary seals are compromised. But higher load situations will cause pressure to blow past those insulators and backup rings and you will get symptoms almost all of the time.
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:44 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
Life of Car - for 12k Miles

The car's life is 90% at 2000RPM. With 4 full RPM runs through 1-2nd roughly 290 days per year.

With additional 40 days being slightly more aggressive (weekends etc.)
Thanks.

You're driving harder than I have. I think perhaps I can rest easier now, seeing how you drive, and the resulting condition of your injectors (which look fine to me, not on the verge of melt-down), it all suggests that for my driving conditions ... I need not be so concerned.

My car was purchased right off the truck in May 2012, so it's an early build and I've been concerned with the reports of serious problems.

The history on your car suggests that, indeed, driven as most of us are likely to drive it, we are unlikely to melt our injector seals, never mind blow our engines. I'm back to thinking that these problems are more likely to arise for those who drive their car in track-like conditions wherever that may be. I suspect that cumulative heat build-up may be the major factor, not the occasional brisk, redline shifts.

Again, thanks, Dezoris, for the time and effort that you've expended sharing your experiences with us. This thread has been THE single most reassuring thread I have read concerning this issue.

I feel relieved.
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:07 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by regal View Post
I don't understand why everyone keeps saying the issue is only related to shifting.
I don’t understand why you are claiming that EVERYONE keeps saying the issue is ONLY related to shifting.

If you’re alluding to ME … I have NEVER so much as hinted that this is the case.

Shifting is only ONE of a number of POTENTIAL contributing factors. Shifting is under the driver’s control and may be modified to alleviate a problem until a more comprehensive solution is found. No more, no less.

Quote:
My seals are blown
Are you certain? Do you have definitive proof?

I agree that it sounds as though they may be, but haven’t others experienced similar symptoms and yet had intact seals? Sometimes we arrive at false conclusions… (That’s not an accusation. )

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and I've never shifted from 3rd into 4th at redline,
Okay.

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that's way over the speed limit where I live.
You’re a wonderfully responsible citizen, but rather than highlight this non-issue repeatedly, why not focus on the relevant technical issues? WHY have some engines blown? Is there any relevance to US as we daily drive our cars on our local streets and tracks?

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However I have on many occasion taken a rural curvy road at 5k+ in 2nd and 3rd rpm letting on/off throttle for several miles. And I am sure many others have done this too.
Me, too. And THIS is useful input, and I agree with you that it is worth pondering. I have wondered the very same thing. Did you note my comment about there being nothing “magical” about 5200 rpm and upshifting? I’m thinking that you and I are thinking similarly; it’s not merely about upshifting, but simply generating engine knock under load, especially (I suspect) PROLONGED load conditions that then result in “over-heating.” Think Nurburgring rental BRZs, for instance.

I dunno, I’m just trying to understand like everyone else.

Quote:
This is not reckless driving.
Of course not; but reckless or not, recklessness has nothing to do with the proximate cause of engine problems and failures.

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The fact that the nurburgring rental firms have completely dropped this platform is worldwide news
Well… maybe not.

Maybe it should be, though. I share your concerns. But mostly I just want to know whether any of this is relevant to ME and the way I drive MY car, responsible or otherwise. I don’t want it to break; I especially don’t want my new car to blow up. Things like that upset me.

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and this issue needs addressed. Its a huge red flag.
It is one of many, I agree.

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I stood by with the CEL issue , was the first to publicly post that a simple ECU flash will fix and not to panick. But this DI issue is a serious problem. But I am seriously looking at replacing the seals myself and getting out from under this car before word spreads and resale tanks.
Okay.

I’m not concerned about meaningfully diminished resale value. But, who knows what the future holds? My crystal ball malfunctioned decades ago. Have you got yours up and running again?

Quote:
I waiting 4 years following this car's development but a low milage MR-S or S2k sounds so good right now.
Yeah? Cool!

I love my S2k. I might consider selling it. I keep thinking I’d like a Porsche, but I’ve been unable to reconcile the $30,000+ upcharge to move to a new Boxster. My S2000 is just so good.

Today my wife chased me to Road America, she driving our Mazdaspeed3 (second one), and me ahead of her in the S2000. She said she could hear my exhaust.

"How'd it sound?" I asked.

"Anemic," she said.

"WHAT?!" I exclaimed. "What are you SAYING? Are you trying to say that you'd rather hear the wail of a Porsche flat-six?" I asked.

She smiled...

You interested? It’s like new! Really! It’s red, around 11,000 miles, bought new and carefully broken in, ALWAYS gently driven until oil temp is up, never in rain or snow, no winters, no pets, no smoking, no speed-shifting … you’d love it, it’s the one you dream of! It still even smells new...

Regal, you’ve made a lot of good points about our cars and about this problem. I share many of your concerns.

Take care, fellow BRZ/FRS owner, and I hope your FRS experience improves soon.

And I hope my BRZ doesn’t break.

Last edited by Porsche; 08-02-2013 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:00 AM   #109
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Great post Porsche thank you and I think it sums things up nicely. The best way to "check" your seals is with a cylinder leak down test. I believe recurrence can be prevented with a smart tune. I am ordering parts and will just replace the bad seals and tune out the detonation with BRZedit or the new tablet, done waiting on Toyota.

No hurry as my dutiful Yaris is the epitome of Toyota reliability, although it feels like driving a bus after driving the FR-S for a year
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:21 PM   #110
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I want to personally thank @Dezoris for his continued effort to better this forum, experience of ownership, and experiences, opinions with the Vortech as well we all owe him atleast a beer and a pat on the back. And a ball cup.
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:11 AM   #111
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WOW!!!! Great last couple posts! Cheers to everyone who has put so much time and effort into this. For now, we all wait. The ball is in Toyota's court and we just have to see what they do next. I won't be selling my car anytime soon! She will have a home with me for a long time to come.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:14 AM   #112
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I wonder what this platform would be like with a 13B in it. I have been holding off on doing track events, but I think I will start doing them, and if this engine lets go, I will try the 13B.
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