Dealership Accuses Variable Valve Timing (VVT) Ajustment

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by shiro

Now why would I or my tuner adjust that if no engine work was done?

What exactly are you trying to get the dealer to fix? What type of TSB/issues are you having with your engine?

The blanket statements about voided warranty are mostly in response to your post... because some important details are being left out.

-alex

[andrew20195]

Ignoring the turbo kit and whether or not it caused the engine failure... What VVT cover are they talking about? That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe ask them to send you a picture of what they're talking about. I can't think of anything that will fit upside down with regards to the timing chain area. I don't recall off the top of my head, but it may be possible to install the valve cover upside down, but that has nothing to do with modifying cam timing on these engines.

Usually, modifications to the AVCS timing is done through ECM tuning.

[xbiker]

Aftermarket turbos are a game changer for a drive train warranty. That's the risk you knowingly take going in to this. It's a risk vs reward proposition. Good luck fighting corporate over this one. You're going to need it.

[fistpoint]

I can't help with your current situation, but for future incidents like this you should have them document the fact that you came in earlier with problems prior to the turbo install. Of course this needed to be done back when you first brought it in.

Take for example the crickets. The very first person to experience it might have been told it's normal and sent away. 4 years later he learns about all the threads in this forum and goes back to the dealer, way past warranty. The documentation detailing the issue can be used to retroactively get the fix, past warranty, because you were there within the warranty period.

This isn't foolproof, but it gives you a leg to stand on.

[connorlug]

So you had the turbo on the car for 600 miles, Motor doesn't like the turbo and blows up after only 600 miles with it on, you take the kit off.

VVT isn't adjusted manually like that, it would be adjusted via ECM. i'd have to say your tuner had a part in the failure if VVT is even related, which I truly doubt.

[strat61caster]

Sounds like the dealer gave you a verbal agreement to look into it providing you took the turbo off and returned it to factory, they realized they made a mistake, the turbo was likely the cause of the failure but since they have no evidence of a turbo other than your word they have to find some fault with the car to blame you for tinkering hoping you'll back down.

It's nasty no matter how you look at it. Bottom line is unless we've got pictures or a third party that's reliable (hah it's the internet) the answer is going to be "you've got to pay to play". Engines don't blow up for no reason, whether it be melted seals, fucked up timing or bad fuel, there is evidence and right now Occam's razor says "because tarbo".

Edit: This is why when somebody is OD'ing paramedics don't care about the law, only the correct solution, lying ends up in death. Sure lie about how often you floss, but when it comes to the stuff you don't know you're usually better off being honest or at least taking responsibility.

Edit 2: 600 miles with turbo is not a get out of jail card, you can do a lot of damage with a lot fewer miles.

[N1rve]

VVT Cover!? You mean the valve cover? I don't think you can actually bolt that backwards.....

If you do bolt that backwards, it won't even line up correctly.

And also, I'm pretty sure VVTI is controlled by the ECU. If you flashed your ECU with a tune (which I'm pretty sure you did because of the turbo), that WILL adjust the valve timing. That's why tuners get paid well. Figuring out all the math for the timing.

This car DOES have a black box so data is recorded and can be pulled.

So as of now... No I don't think your valve cover can be put on backwards and yes your VVT-i CAN be adjusted or would have been adjusted.

Options? 1) Take it like a man and dish out the dough for a new engine 2) Tow it to another Toyota Dealer and hope they fix it.

[shiro]

Originally Posted by Ralph Spoilsport

If your car got messed up by the dealer service dept, your best bet here is establishing some sort of paper trail that shows that your dealer had a reason (think TSB) to be mucking around with the AVCS. There are a couple of AVCS related TSBs. Start there. What were you doing when it failed?

No, the dealership should have not touched the car yet. And there were no modifications to the engine block. We only added the external turbo and updated the fuel tables.

I was driving the car normally to a meeting when the engine started to make some bad noises. More like, I’m assessing there was a misfire and knocked the engine out of alignment. I pulled over and turned the car off, waited a minute and started her back up. Still had the same noise and no CEL codes or warning appeared. The ECU recorded noted no issues. A couple seconds later the engine locked up while in an idle. I wasn’t pushing the car or spinning up the turbo at all that morning.

Originally Posted by mav1178

What exactly are you trying to get the dealer to fix? What type of TSB/issues are you having with your engine?

Originally Posted by mav1178

The blanket statements about voided warranty are mostly in response to your post... because some important details are being left out.
-alex

Thanks Alex; you are absolutely correct. They are blanket statements. My only action with the dealership is to get some assistance on the TSBs that are out. I have more than enough information to build a really good case, metrics, sources, and all. It’s just spending the time and money to prove a point. Overall, I really want to get the ECU firmware update that has been identified as a large contributor of these engine issues.

But I’m not leaving too much information out. Honestly, I don’t race my car and I didn’t build it for big gains. The turbo was on for about 600miles (mainly highway since it took me 450miles to drive from my tuner back home). The biggest thing was the issues were present prior to the turbo and the dealership never logged any of the times I was in the shop. That was unfortunate for me. I’ve read some successes with members that have had turbos on and through time Subaru (maybe Toyota) has fixed the issues. I’m trying the same route but it will be a long road.

Originally Posted by andrew20195

Ignoring the turbo kit and whether or not it caused the engine failure... What VVT cover are they talking about? That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe ask them to send you a picture of what they're talking about. I can't think of anything that will fit upside down with regards to the timing chain area. I don't recall off the top of my head, but it may be possible to install the valve cover upside down, but that has nothing to do with modifying cam timing on these engines.

Originally Posted by andrew20195

Usually, modifications to the AVCS timing is done through ECM tuning.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. That was the response I was looking for. I will be sure to get more information from the dealership soon. The regional manager should be at the dealership today to look at the engine. Overall, if they [the dealership] is claiming the AVCS has been adjusted I am curious if the AVCS was installed wrong from stock. My tuner would never touch the AVCS and the only people that have touched my car is myself, my tuner, the dealership and the shop that put the car together prior to sale. Thanks again!

Originally Posted by connorlug

So you had the turbo on the car for 600 miles, Motor doesn't like the turbo and blows up after only 600 miles with it on, you take the kit off.

Originally Posted by connorlug

VVT isn't adjusted manually like that, it would be adjusted via ECM. i'd have to say your tuner had a part in the failure if VVT is even related, which I truly doubt.

Thank you! Another response I was looking for! When I was told by the dealership that my AVCS/VVT was adjusted I was pretty shocked. I called my tuner immediately after the phone call with the dealership and asked them. The response was great: “Hell no! We don’t touch any part of the AVCS/VVT.” Which would only leave myself, the dealership and the shop prior to sale. Continuing, I wouldn’t have knowledge of adjusting or messing with the AVCS.

To add, over 450miles of the 600 were all highway miles (some with datalogging) with no signs of any extreme/out of place values in the data tables.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Sounds like the dealer gave you a verbal agreement to look into it providing you took the turbo off and returned it to factory, they realized they made a mistake, the turbo was likely the cause of the failure but since they have no evidence of a turbo other than your word they have to find some fault with the car to blame you for tinkering hoping you'll back down.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

It's nasty no matter how you look at it. Bottom line is unless we've got pictures or a third party that's reliable (hah it's the internet) the answer is going to be "you've got to pay to play". Engines don't blow up for no reason, whether it be melted seals, fucked up timing or bad fuel, there is evidence and right now Occam's razor says "because tarbo".
Edit: This is why when somebody is OD'ing paramedics don't care about the law, only the correct solution, lying ends up in death. Sure lie about how often you floss, but when it comes to the stuff you don't know you're usually better off being honest or at least taking responsibility.
Edit 2: 600 miles with turbo is not a get out of jail card, you can do a lot of damage with a lot fewer miles.

Thanks for adding. I agree but I’m also playing a different perspective than trying to hide the fact I had a turbo. This could ultimately cost me to pay for all the issues in the end but I am also shedding light on the fact that I’ve been a loyal customer to Toyota for years, bought many of their vehicles, and am very active in bring customers to their cause. Normal consumers and dealerships won’t care about that response but if you ask any regional manager or people in corporate that is more important to them than a modification with known issues. I believe this will take a lot of work and time but the outcome might actually end with both parties happy. Just need to give it time.

Originally Posted by N1rve

VVT Cover!? You mean the valve cover? I don't think you can actually bolt that backwards.....

Originally Posted by N1rve

If you do bolt that backwards, it won't even line up correctly.
And also, I'm pretty sure VVTI is controlled by the ECU. If you flashed your ECU with a tune (which I'm pretty sure you did because of the turbo), that WILL adjust the valve timing. That's why tuners get paid well. Figuring out all the math for the timing.
This car DOES have a black box so data is recorded and can be pulled.

So as of now... No I don't think your valve cover can be put on backwards and yes your VVT-i CAN be adjusted or would have been adjusted.
Options? 1) Take it like a man and dish out the dough for a new engine 2) Tow it to another Toyota Dealer and hope they fix it.

Hmm, I’d be curious to look more into that “black box” you speak of. I’m sure that many of the big businesses that modify cars would be aware of this yet they don’t speak of it. You are the only person to bring this up. Yes the ECU does record information but just like any computer chip it can be wiped. You can also make it so the data is non-recoverable.

But back to the VVT cover, I didn’t think you could put the cover on backwards either. Usually they only bolt on one-way. Also, from what the TSB’s show I thought the timing was adjusted mechanically (with tools) on the engine and no through the ECU. If that was the fix then Toyota wouldn’t be adjusting the timing with tools and would just flash the ECU to create a fix. Heck each dealership should be flashing all their cars on the lot to make sure they don’t have these issues…but the fix isn’t that simple. Thanks again for the input.

[Sportsguy83]

Lots of posts here to condemn Shiro. Who cares why/what/who/when he took the car to the dealer. He never asked if he could still use his warranty. He never said he is trying to get away with any wrongdoing. He is being honest with the dealer, dealer decides if they want to help, its that simple.

@shiro, I applaud you for keeping calm and not feeding a single troll.

This is the classic 21st Century human attitude, we are all entitled to be assh0les, we are all entitled to judge everyone and give zero f*cks... Jesus....

Was it that hard to just answer his question and move on?

VVT can be adjusted by the tuner and it is adjusted electronically. Now, if they can adjust it far enough that it can cause damage to engine components I DOUBT it.

Also, it is very probable the failure has to do with the AVCS system not working properly from before you installed the turbo, but it will be extremely hard to prove and the dealer will most probably blame the turbo and be done with it.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Lots of posts here to condemn Shiro. Who cares why/what/who/when he took the car to the dealer. He never asked if he could still use his warranty. He never said he is trying to get away with any wrongdoing. He is being honest with the dealer, dealer decides if they want to help, its that simple.

@shiro, I applaud you for keeping calm and not feeding a single troll.

This is the classic 21st Century human attitude, we are all entitled to be assh0les, we are all entitled to judge everyone and give zero f*cks... Jesus....

Was it that hard to just answer his question and move on?

VVT can be adjusted by the tuner and it is adjusted electronically. Now, if they can adjust it far enough that it can cause damage to engine components I DOUBT it.

Also, it is very probable the failure has to do with the AVCS system not working properly from before you installed the turbo, but it will be extremely hard to prove and the dealer will most probably blame the turbo and be done with it.

Well, I just wanted to know his intent hence my original question. Pretty sure you know by now that I am always asking questions to get the right context/info as I know there will always be people out there that know more than I do.
You've pretty confirmed it as well as his replies that he didn't really know what he was asking.

In any case to sum it up, he is going for the AVCS being a factory defect to get a new engine.
He thinks he has a case but still hasn't actually said anything other than he visited the dealer prior to this.
It didn't need 2 pages to just get this across in the first place.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Well, I just wanted to know his intent hence my original question. Pretty sure you know by now that I am always asking questions to get the right context/info as I know there will always be people out there that know more than I do.
You've pretty confirmed it as well as his replies that he didn't really know what he was asking.

In any case to sum it up, he is going for the AVCS being a factory defect to get a new engine.
He thinks he has a case but still hasn't actually said anything other than he visited the dealer prior to this.
It didn't need 2 pages to just get this across in the first place.

I know you and I know you didn't mean to crucify him.

[tennisfreak]

Can I ask why you would even risk putting a turbo on the car if you had taken it to the dealer multiple times prior for engine issues and they never fully resolved them?

[BunnyRZed]

The reality is they'll blame it on the turbo regardless of whether or not the problem existed before or after the turbo got installed. Keep up the spirit and let us know how it goes.

What is Not Covered:

Damage or Malfunction Due to Improper Repair or Unauthorized Parts

These warranties do not cover any part which malfunctions, fails or is damaged due to any unauthorized alteration or modification made to the vehicle such as the removal of parts or the installation of parts, equipment or accessories or improper repairs or adjustments not approved or recommended by SOA.

https://www.subaru.com/my-subaru/warranties-2013.html

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Lots of posts here to condemn Shiro. Who cares why/what/who/when he took the car to the dealer. He never asked if he could still use his warranty. He never said he is trying to get away with any wrongdoing. He is being honest with the dealer, dealer decides if they want to help, its that simple.

@shiro, I applaud you for keeping calm and not feeding a single troll.

This is the classic 21st Century human attitude, we are all entitled to be assh0les, we are all entitled to judge everyone and give zero f*cks... Jesus....

Welcome to the internet? There's a lot of hate on this forum (like any other forum) and people are quick to jump on someone.

I am following this thread just to see how this turns up and to learn how other companies deal with tricky warranty claims.

I do warranty investigation work for a living and it is unfortunately going to be burden of proof on end-user to prove that the system wasn't tuned to the current point and unless there are software signatures that can prove this, it is likely going to be denied.

At that point, it will be purely goodwill for them to do anything but it sounds like the OP is being reasonable. If I were on the other side of the desk, I wouldn't have a hard time about that - what I would have a hard time with though, is trying to get a service dealer to work on a car that is heavily modified.

Keep us posted OP!